Is anyone aware of any radios made after WWII incorporating FM but with the prewar band only?

Norman

Norman, that is an interesting question, however I have not run across any of them or information one exists so far.

I did sit down and page through each manual to find all pre-war FM radios published by Riders. It is possible I missed one or two, but here is the list.

http://userpages.bright.net/~geary/fm/fm-riders.html

I have since found the 1942 Capehart M series with FM published in Vol. 20, so I need to continue past Vol. 15. There were FM radios NOT published by Riders such as an early Meissner I own that tunes the 39-44 MHz experimental FM band.

The chances of a postwar FM radio made that tunes the prewar band only is slim, but anything is possible.

-Steve

Check out this website [url][/url] http://www.somerset.net/arm/fm_only.html[url][/url]. He has a list of radios that are FM only. According to the list, GE and Meissner both made FM only radios with the pre-war band.

Of course it would help if I read the question correctly, which I didn't. Both GE and Meissner made pre-war radios with only the pre-war FM band. However, there is a handful of radios on that list that were made in 1945. You could look up the schematics on those models on [url]Nostalgiaair.org[/url] to see if they are the pre-war band.

By the end of WWII and the beginning of civilian production, the FM band had already been cited for at least 88-106 MHz soon being extended to 88-108.

The 4 major Armstrong licensed manufacturers (General Electric, Magnavox, Stromberg Carlson and Zenith) made FM models with both bands for a while after WWII.
Fortunately, Armstrong got the FCC to allow the prewar band to exist for a while to allow the new one to get established.

I could add to Norman's question. Were there any post war FM radios with dial markings of 88-106?

Were there other manufacturers who made FM radios with both bands besides the 4 mentioned?

I think I'll add that to my Riders research

-Steve

Zenith had a few including consoles. I dont have models handy but a 1946 console is stashed in the attic.

Carl

The FCC's final allocation for frequencies between 44 and 108 mhz was announced on June 27, 1945 but even at that time the FCC was encouraging industry to manufacture FM products covering a band of 88 to 108 mhz because it was anticipated that the facsimile transmissions on the 106 - 108 mhz band were to be relocated to higher frequencies. This from an article in FM and Television News for July of 1945 that I will try to post shortly. It is understandable that some post WWII receivers had both the pre-war and post-war FM bands but post war receivers having the pre war band only should have been considered obsolete before sale.

The article also indicates that the War Production Board (WPB) was prepared to provide spot authorizations for the manufacture of FM receivers by companies capable of showing that they had materials and components available as well as labor not required for war production. This opportunity to embrace the consumer market before the war was declared over had to be tantilizing to the manufacturers as it would have allowed any authorized manufacturers to hit the ground running at the end of the war. The WPB doubted that many authorizations would be approved during the third quarter of 1945 but that a number of authorizations may be approved during the fourth quarter as a result of military cutbacks and that "1,000,000 sets will be produced by the end of January 1946".

Norman

Some of Stromberg-Carlson's 1947 radio-phonographs were advertised as having "TWO FM Bands!" or "Both FM bands!". A woman in Northern California contacted me recently asking about the value of her '47 S-C "Autograph" model 1135-PL. (She thought it was a Fisher at first and I am listed as one of the contacts on the fisherconsoles.com website.) One of the photos she sent me was a close-up of the dial which showed the FM markings running from 210-300 on the upper scale and from 20-100 on the lower scale. Are either of those the pre-war band?

My Stromberg Carlson 1947 1235 M-5 Console has two FM bands ranging from 20-100 and 210 to 300, on the dial scale. I have with the owner’s manual a Stromberg Carlson "FM Conversion Chart” for both Bands on the dial. It showed how to tune the "New FM" in with the dial scales on the radio. The manual shows the receiver can tune in the FM Broadcast Band from 42-50mc and 88 to 108mc.

20-100 is the pre-war band. 210-300 is the modern band.

I once worked on a Postwar REL receiver that had both FM bands, and no AM band. It had been used as an air monitor for an FM station.

I kind of doubt it. I can't imagine any postwar company investing in the time and expense to design, develop, and market a radio that tuned prewar FM but not postwar FM. That would have been nothing short of marketing suicide. It would have made that company seriously look like a "Johnny come lately" to all the other manufacturers that were quick in marketing radios that featured the postwar FM band.

Originally FM stations weren't listed by frequency but channel number. 88.1 was channel 201 and 107.9 is channel 300. In fact, if you see a translator callsign such as W227BF, that three digit number is the channel number- in this case 93.3.

Scott Todd

The prewar channels are easy to figure out.

21-99 equal to 42.1 - 49.9 Add a 4 and move the decimal.

The postwar band isn't so clear. Anyone know why they chose 200-300?

Doug, That's interesting to know REL made a dual bander as well. Thanks!

-Steve

I've got a General Electric X415 which has both the old and new FM band. Earlier today, I went through the schematic to see the substantial differences in the circuits between the old and new FM bands.

To a modest extent this is my belief as well. But I am in the process of restoring a radio manufactured immediately after WWII that has the broadcast, one shortwave, and the pre war FM band, no post war FM band. Date codes on components are after the FCC declaration. And it is a Scott no less!

Here is the article from FM and Television News, July 1945. It is a very interesting read for several reasons. Sorry for the low resolution. Without breaking it up into 10 blocks requiring reassembly to read, this is the best I can do with current forum limitations.

Norman

Norman, thanks for posting that article.

I've never seen any techniocal or other reasons that TV station locations could not have started above 50MHz. However, remember reading that there were technical reasons that TV Channel 1 was all but completely ignored. Besides lobbying by Sarnoff and the companies he represented, it does seem that the FCC may also have been faced with a dilemma. If they widened the FM band below or above 42-50 to provide for more stations, boadcasters might be reluctant to use the frequencies outside of the 42-50 range. Instead of instantly making the existing 42-50 FM receivers, many or most of which were relatively new and more expensive models, obsolete without compensation, they should have paid to have them modified by the original manufacturers to work on the new band, with new dials.

Ive researched part of that before and offer the following differences that were supposedly cast pre WW2.

The original 5M ham band was 54-60mc
In return for moving it to 6M, 50-54mc, CH 1 was dropped as unecessary. Ive never read about a 44-50mc CH1 assignment which became an ISM (Industrial, Scientific, Medical) band in the US at some postwar point.

Carl

Here is the FM Conversion Chart that came with my Stromberg Carlson in 1947. If someone wants a larger PDF just PM me with your email address.

I suppose its just circumstantial evidence about the old FM band and TV Channel 1.

FM band set at 42-50 MHz in 1940.

Sarnoff and Armstrong at odds. Armstrong promoting FM, while Sarnoff promoting Television.
Sarnoff clearly does NOT want to support FM in ANY way.

It seems RCA was the push to move the FM band to help make way for Television.

Channel one is where the prewar FM band is/was. The first production TVs have channel 1, but by 1948, channel one is dropped altogether on production TVs only to return in the 80s as a Cable channel.

Many FM radios had both FM bands after the war.

It just seems Armstrong would have fought to keep the old FM band intact rather than submit to having it moved as it seems in the article. Otherwise, why would Channel 1 disappear? Why would postwar FM radios have both bands? It seems the answer was to temporarily reverse the FCC decision in order to allow the old FM band to remain until the new one got established. This is mentioned in the article slightly, but many things aren't clear.

I've never found a good answer to all this and have relied on the evidence at hand. The presumed answer that "makes sense".
I only wish I knew all the true details of the whole battle between Armstrong and Sarnoff rather than the biased accounts from the known sources.

Norman, would you be willing to share a photo of this interesting FM Scott your restoring? I'm quite curious.

-Steve