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 Post subject: dealing with a trader
PostPosted: Dec Fri 01, 2017 10:08 pm 
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Joined: Feb Sat 28, 2015 10:50 pm
Posts: 346
Location: Decatur Alabama
I have a Zenith 11 S 474. It is not restored yet, but a customer has seen it and wants it- badly. The problem is, he wants me to restore it (chassis AND cabinet) and then buy it at an unrestored price. I turned down his offer of $300, so now he wants to trade a Philco 37-10 and some cash. I don't think the Philco is anywhere near as valuable as the Zenith but I'd like to get some opinions from you folks on what you think the Philco is worth. It has been restored by the way, and he says he paid $500 for it several years ago. I am going to turn him down but I want some ammo to show him why. Thanks for the help,
Doc


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 Post subject: Re: dealing with a trader
PostPosted: Dec Sat 02, 2017 12:15 am 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 16836
Location: Albuquerque, NM 87123
I'm not that familiar with either model, but my first impression with "dealers" is that they want the deal and you wind up holding the bag. If they don't have your asking price, turn them down.


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 Post subject: Re: dealing with a trader
PostPosted: Dec Sat 02, 2017 12:30 am 
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Joined: Dec Sat 24, 2011 9:17 pm
Posts: 1568
Location: Vancouver Island, Canada
Zenith 11 S 474 Is a 1940 model with p/p 6v6's, round black dial with pushbuttons left and right.

The Philco has older circuitry and tubes, 1937, and the dial is attractive but a keyhole design with a large tuning knob. Similar tube count, push pull output.

Keep the Zenith.
Besides, there might still be rubber wire repairs needed to the Philco. No guarantees on the rebuild.
http://philcoradio.com/gallery2/1937b/#Model_37-10X

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Last edited by westcoastjohn on Dec Sat 02, 2017 12:51 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: dealing with a trader
PostPosted: Dec Sat 02, 2017 12:43 am 
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Joined: Jan Mon 16, 2012 4:15 pm
Posts: 3619
Location: Near Brandon, Iowa
Even though the two sets are similar in terms of functionality and tube count, and neither is really a "high dollar set", my preference would be for the Zenith. This chassis is a superb performer, and has a Wavemagnet tuned loop antenna and advanced tone control system, both of which the Philco lacks. Although the Philco has "magnetic tuning" this isn't that compelling of a feature for most people: it is just an AFC circuit that makes up for the lack of repeatibility in the mechanical preset pushbutton scheme.

I've restored several of the 10 and 11 tube Zenith chassis sets and they are easy to work on. They do have the infamous dual 6X5 rectifiers and some rubber-insulated wiring, but that isn't tough to deal with, either. My experience with medium- range Philcos of the 1936-1939 era is that they are a PITA to work on- not particularly complicated, just not designed for serviceability.


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 Post subject: Re: dealing with a trader
PostPosted: Dec Sat 02, 2017 12:51 am 
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Joined: Jan Mon 16, 2012 4:15 pm
Posts: 3619
Location: Near Brandon, Iowa
westcoastjohn wrote:
The Philco has older circuitry and tubes, 1937, and the dial is attractive but a keyhole design with a large tuning knob. Similar tube count but not push pull.

The Philco 37-10 does have a pair of 6F6 tubes in push-pull configuration; however the design uses screen grid signal inversion (voltage fluctuations in the screen grid of the "top" tube are fed to the control grid of the "bottom" tube, accomplishing signal phase inversion without the need for a separate triode). Philco used this scheme on several midrange radio models in the late 30s. It worked OK. Its only peculiarity is that if the "top" (screen-sampled) tube fails, there will be no sound output from the radio at all, which can be confusing.


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 Post subject: Re: dealing with a trader
PostPosted: Dec Sat 02, 2017 12:56 am 
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Posts: 1568
Location: Vancouver Island, Canada
Thanks for the correction, I was relooking the schematic and saw my error.

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 Post subject: Re: dealing with a trader
PostPosted: Dec Sat 02, 2017 12:59 am 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 7339
Location: Minneapolis, MN USA
Ammo ?
1-The fact he thinks your labor and parts towards restoration have no monetary value. This combined with a trade/cash offer sounds like intends to flip the Zenith and wants to maintain some sort of profit level. Or maybe I'm way off---glad I don't sell radios.


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 Post subject: Re: dealing with a trader
PostPosted: Dec Sat 02, 2017 2:34 am 
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Joined: Feb Sat 28, 2015 10:50 pm
Posts: 346
Location: Decatur Alabama
Dale, I don't sell many, but I sell tabletops occasionally in order to buy more radios and parts. When I started this hobby I promised She Who Must Be Obeyed that I would fund it myself- and so far I have. But this guy was in my workshop last year and saw the Zenith sitting "in the queue". I offered him a nice restored 8 S 463 for $300 but of course he's like your average car buyer- always looking at the one that's out of range.


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 Post subject: Re: dealing with a trader
PostPosted: Dec Sat 02, 2017 3:43 am 
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Posts: 9806
Location: Central PA 16801
don't deal with this person.

period.

when we moved back here to PA about 15 years ago, I had a person hound me at my church to fix his 70's long stereo console. that involved hauling it from their house to my shop, restoring it, and hauling it back to their house.

the person asked "how much" and I said something like $350 plus parts. I did not want to do it anyway, but if they bit, I wanted to certainly make it worth my valuable time, experience, knowledge, and all that.

they flipped on the price and asked "why ?"

my answer: "I'm good, not cheap" and walked away.

...and that ended that :wink: .

steve

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 Post subject: Re: dealing with a trader
PostPosted: Dec Sat 02, 2017 5:41 am 
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Joined: Apr Tue 07, 2015 8:31 pm
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Location: Blue Lake, ME
He wants to buy it restored with no compensation for your time and effort?

No thanks.


Last edited by Oldmaine on Dec Sun 03, 2017 2:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: dealing with a trader
PostPosted: Dec Sat 02, 2017 10:06 am 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
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Location: SoCal, 91387
This
Image

For this
Image
And "some cash"?
Better be a whole lotta cash. It's all about styling, and we're looking at a Caddy vs a Plymouth.

On second thought, take the rabbit's advice above, first two short 'n sweet sentences.

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 Post subject: Re: dealing with a trader
PostPosted: Dec Sat 02, 2017 2:41 pm 
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Joined: Jun Tue 19, 2012 3:29 am
Posts: 128
Location: Fulton missouri
Just be firm and polite and say that’s not a trade I feel comfortable with and I’m not going to do it. If he walks he walks.


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 Post subject: Re: dealing with a trader
PostPosted: Dec Sat 02, 2017 2:59 pm 
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Joined: May Fri 10, 2013 4:09 am
Posts: 1006
Location: Dallas Tx
I would keep the zenith, if you sell the zenith to him as is I would ask around $150 maybe more depending on condition. Then if his agrees on that, you can restore it for him at what ever you guys agree on. If you really like the philco then work something out with him. The zenith would be easier to unload than the philco, zenith looks nicer and sounds better than the philco. AS long as both of you are pleased with the deal that's all that matters.


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 Post subject: Re: dealing with a trader
PostPosted: Dec Sat 02, 2017 3:51 pm 
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Joined: Jan Mon 28, 2013 9:35 pm
Posts: 822
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
I prefer trades over cash purchases myself but this is a one
sided deal. Sounds like he really wants the Zenith. If you're not
too attached to it put a price on it you'd feel comfortable with
and offer it to him as-is, take it or leave it.

Doesn't sound like this guy is going to be reasonable so make him
this offer and if he balks, just forget about it and move on.
Guys like this will waste your time.
Steve


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 Post subject: Re: dealing with a trader
PostPosted: Dec Sat 02, 2017 4:04 pm 
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Posts: 11544
Location: S. Dartmouth MA 02748-1225 USA
zarco wrote:
...Doesn't sound like this guy is going to be reasonable so make him
this offer and if he balks, just forget about it and move on.
Guys like this will waste your time.
Steve
I totally agree with Steve.

GL

Chas


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 Post subject: Re: dealing with a trader
PostPosted: Dec Sat 02, 2017 5:06 pm 
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Joined: Feb Thu 08, 2007 2:32 pm
Posts: 11131
Location: 06457
You can only cater to people so much. I tell those that are a PITA and you will know who they are in time, that this is the way it is and the item can stay with me forever if need be.


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 Post subject: Re: dealing with a trader
PostPosted: Dec Sat 02, 2017 5:20 pm 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 1491
Location: Silver Spring MD, USA
Chas wrote:
zarco wrote:
...Doesn't sound like this guy is going to be reasonable so make him
this offer and if he balks, just forget about it and move on.
Guys like this will waste your time.
Steve
I totally agree with Steve.

GL

Chas

+1 to Steve and Chas

The first red flag was that he wanted to have you restore it and sell it at the unrestored price. No way.

And no on the trade.

I'd bet that if you agreed on a RESTORED price, you'd restore it and he'd balk.

I agree that this guy is a time waster. Trying to get something for nothing.

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 Post subject: Re: dealing with a trader
PostPosted: Dec Sat 02, 2017 7:36 pm 
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Joined: Dec Sat 23, 2006 5:49 pm
Posts: 1213
Location: missouri ozarks
I am the one guy who would take the Philco over the Zenith, for lots of reasons, but that is not the scope of your question. I would tell the "trader" to take a hike. He wants you to do restoration work for nothing. Then he will promptly flip the set for a large profit. Life is too short to have to deal with mooches. And beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Good luck.

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 Post subject: Re: dealing with a trader
PostPosted: Dec Sat 02, 2017 8:09 pm 
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Joined: Dec Wed 02, 2015 9:42 pm
Posts: 112
Location: Santa Clara, CA 95051
If he really wants it he will come around.
After all is said and done, none of this is a life sustaining necessity. If it's something you love and you feel you must have it, you have to be ready to pay for it, be it a Plymouth, a Caddy or a Zenith.
For me I would take the Philco, not because I feel it is a better set electronically but because it goes to what I like to collect and like to have around. I want to own the sets the common farmer or city worker would have had in their house.
Although I admit to not knowing, it strikes me that Zenith would have cost a lot more than the Philco off the showroom floor in the day. If I was able to go down the average street or out I the country in the day and see what's in the average living room, I'm guessing I would see more Philco sets only because I think more folks could afford them. It's the kind of thing my uncle or grandmother would have owned. And although people with good hearing could tell the difference, for what's left of my hearing either would sound as good.
That's another good point, do you keep the radio to sell or to listen to? I don't want a radio that doesn't sing to me. I try to listen to all of my radios at least 2 days a month, and I listen to some one of them everyday.

Tomie


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 Post subject: Re: dealing with a trader
PostPosted: Dec Sat 02, 2017 8:58 pm 
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Joined: Feb Sat 28, 2015 10:50 pm
Posts: 346
Location: Decatur Alabama
Great comments, folks! I have only been restoring radios for 3 years or so, but in that time I have bought probably 200. I have over 100 in my basement/workshop right now, and some really nice ones in the house (the ones sweetie likes). I still have a lot to learn about electronic restoration but I have a club with members who know all there is to know about radios. And I have gotten pretty good at cabinet refinishing, thanks to watching and reading everything Fred Taylor does. This is only a hobby and I don't really have a brand that I favor over another. I do have 23 Philcos but that is simply because they're always coming up in my area. I had to stop buying radios when I found I had no more room. I told the guy what the Zenith's restored price would be and I wouldn't trade. As most of you hinted, he balked and decided he wanted something a lot less expensive.


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