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 Post subject: Ebay Money Back Guarantee
PostPosted: Jan Mon 01, 2018 5:01 pm 
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Posts: 1042
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan 48108
I have a question about the EBay Money Back Guarantee.

Suppose an EBay seller advertises a nice Yaesu HF transceiver, describes it in every detail, and implies that everything works. He also specifies "Seller does not accept returns". I buy the radio for a non-trivial price, and when I get the radio find that a major function like the antenna tuner doesn't work, or the radio doesn't transmit the full power that it should.

Does the Ebay Money Back Guarantee mean that I can always return it and get my money back?

What if seller says, radio works, but I am "selling for parts or restoration". I am not talking about antique radios. I am talking about modern electronics. Can I always get my money back if a piece of equipment is not right?

I am just trying to understand if I spend some bucks on a 20-30 year old HF transceiver and protect myself.

Mark K8KZ


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 Post subject: Re: Ebay Money Back Guarantee
PostPosted: Jan Mon 01, 2018 6:01 pm 
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Joined: Feb Mon 06, 2012 7:24 pm
Posts: 2247
Location: Gold Country, (Stanislaus National Forest) California 95235
markmoke wrote:
eBay seller does not accept returns" broken item.
Go to Resolution Center, click on the item in question and Open a Case Item Not as Described and choose Significantly Other Than Described and state the reasons.
markmoke wrote:
What if seller says, radio works, but I am "selling for parts or restoration". Can I always get my money back if a piece of equipment is not right?
If you open an NAD case for items listed as Parts or Restoration then the automated eBay algorithms will side with the seller not the buyer - especially in the case of modern electronics that are imprted by the millions from China and sold in the exact same manner by hundreds of thousands of drop-shippers all over the world.

Unfortunately the aforementioned automated algorithms at eBay and Amazon (or if it's reviewed by a human - the human is at one of their offshored issue resolution centers that have zero knowledge on any topic in any capacity) treat ANY electronics as such - so when e.g. an ARF seller loses a NID case, they are hounded by the platform to either refund the money, pay to send the item back or both - which is why most of us have left the platforms.

When we complain to the platform about the mistreatment - most of the time we are shrugged off and expected to take the loss and write it off as a cost of doing business or pass it on to the next customer in terms of price or postage or handling hikes.

The only way to avoid this type of scenario is for a seller to dump the loss on the huge financial institutions (PayPal/Visa-MC/your bank-credit union) that can afford it by filing chargebacks through their bank/credit union, again through the Visa/MC system and again through the PayPal system.

In the handful of times this has happened to me in the 20-odd years online platform selling has been around at least one of the three has dropped my money back into my pocket. In the case where two or all three have done so because one system doesn't talk to the other - I consider it compensation for aggravation or compensation for ongoing systemic noncompliance and go on about my business.

In the unlikely event that you STILL don't get resolution - any number of TV news Consumer Investigations reporters LOVE to drag the name of a great big international conglomerate like that thru the mud any chance they get so they can have their 15 mins of fame.

They had a piece on one of the TV news magazines not too long ago about what happens when the platform, financial institution or payment processing company declares no fault at all and pays BOTH buyer AND seller - and the answer was ``that's one of a number of things your per-transaction platform-usage fees goes to cover''.

That applies equally well to all three venues.

But - Caveat Emptor - IF you go in EXPECTING 30-year old merchandise to be in 100% perfect showroom new condition or restored thereto and EXPECTING to have to battle people over the smallest things - then you will have problems sooner or later whether on the platform or off.

This is one of any number of reasons long-in-the-tooth electronics hobbyists are loath to have newcomers as customers or prospective customers and where the whole (crabby voiced) ya gonna buy it or are you just gonna stand there so I have to water you like a plant? attitude came from.

Like they say in the other thread antiqueradios.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=333015 - even if sellers can no longer leave Negative Feedback for buyers - theres a whooooolleeee host of aboveground and underground forums that list buyers that repeatedly game the system - over which the online platform has no control.

Meaning everybody who knows about these outlets will check every bidder against multiple versions thereof and cancel bids by people listed on more than a few forums. When the platform comes whining and crying on behalf of the buyer for ``being discriminated against'' then the forum page(s) in question listing the person's discrepancies is screenshot and sent to the platform in question.

99% of the time that's the last the seller hears about it.

Of course it galls the platforms to no end that the Internet has found more than a few workarounds for the exclusion of seller feedback especially those over which they can exert absolutely zero influence - but hey. people who have been taken advantage of are going to find resolution to their satisfaction one way or another - meaning the platforms need to quit whining and complaining and either get used to the forums over which they have no control or re-instate seller feedback - it's that simple.

So - with that said - ultimately - you're a grown man - eventually you will have to make up your own mind.

_________________
2 kinds of men/tape. Low Noise/Wide Range.
LN=kind. WR=abrasive. Engineers=same thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Ebay Money Back Guarantee
PostPosted: Jan Mon 01, 2018 11:13 pm 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 16977
Location: Albuquerque, NM 87123
There are many sellers who think that they can list an item and select For Parts or Repair, then say something like 'this really works but eBay forces me to sell for parts' and this will cover them--not so. If you state 50 times something doesn't work, then once that it does, eBay will hold you to your claim of it being functional. Others try misspelling words or using bad grammar.

If you want something fully functional you should look for refurbished or restored items, then email the seller for complete details. eBay will also read emails between both of you and consider those if there is any problem; they can pull up your emails faster than you can.


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 Post subject: Re: Ebay Money Back Guarantee
PostPosted: Jan Tue 02, 2018 12:39 am 
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Joined: Nov Wed 12, 2014 9:35 pm
Posts: 1042
Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan 48108
Thanks guys. This is all good information.

I've bought a lot of different Yeasus, Kenwoods, etc over they years (and also sold them), but never on Ebay. I have always had good luck with used ham equipment. I just wanted to determine if I have any protection if I buy, say a Kenwood Ts-570D, that is represented as fully functioning. Then I find out a major feature doesnt work.

I am not in a position to fix something like that myself. It's not like a 6 tube Philco.

Mark K8KZ


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 Post subject: Re: Ebay Money Back Guarantee
PostPosted: Jan Tue 02, 2018 12:59 am 
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Joined: Feb Mon 06, 2012 7:24 pm
Posts: 2247
Location: Gold Country, (Stanislaus National Forest) California 95235
Johnnysan wrote:
If there is any problem; the (online platforms) can pull up your emails faster than you can.
Which is one major reason why - at least anymore - more and more people are engaging in either vetted

1. Online Trading Assistants - most of which have all the same back office support structures as the platforms themselves

2. Online Valets - high-volume versions of the above or

3. Individual combinations of call center service providers, billing service providers, fullfillment/return service providers and every other kind of outfit imaginable.

In all three cases - apart from being nothing more than glorified Googlemeisters who research product descriptions online and cut and paste them into a listing - especially when the platform finds out that both seller and buyer are similarly situated with one or more of the above three - the platform almost always ends up paying whatever discrepancy exists out of its' own pocket.

This is done simply because all the same third party business service providers engaged by the platforms have recently opened up their services to all three of the above categories - and for more than affordable prices.

It's the same as the consumer rights groups e.g. The Consumerist or GetHuman allowing people to prepay i.e. 24.99 per incident to create an inter-call-center stalemate on behalf of the customer that HAS to get escalated out of ALL call centers and back to the Office of Inter Corporate Affairs at however many companies are involved.

Who then refund the CUSTOMER and charge the COMAPNIES the 24.99 per incident fee through whatever kind of backcharging system they have - which is the same as a consumer doing a chargeback through his bank Visa or PayPal - all of which goes on millions of times a day all over the world -or when bad credit card or other debts are sold and resold in bulk.

So - for the same reason the platforms tell members that they will provide the refund to the buyer - let the seller keep the money and don't want the mdse returned to the fullfillment center - the same as all the other materials sold by the millions by hundreds of thousands of similar sellers all over the world - the platform in question decides that it's going to be wasting more man-hours, energy and money navigating an endless stalemate of third-party service providers in trying to solve the dispute than it would be just to do the same thing for all its' other merchandise as well.

Meaning if you opened up an NAD case against a guy and you both have tens of thousands of positive feedbacks and you both are protected behind any one or all three of be above walls - then the platform would call Stalemate, let the seller keep your money, refund the buyer's money back to him and let him keep the mdse besides.

It all goes back to the modern world of 99% of the people only caring about 3 things.
1. Their check
2. Their time off.
3. How to get customers and administration to leave them alone and
4. How to maximize all three of those with little to no effort.

Since everybody is either paid TOO MUCH to care about X or not paid ENOUGH to care about X and all the middle people are gone - leaving the only action for both sides remaining is to endlessly attempt to dump the problem on each other only to immediately get it dumped back on them - it's just simply less aggravation for all involved for the business in question to pay out to both sides and hike the fees afterward.

Trouble with that is sooner or later everybody is going to get hip to this - nobody is going to care enough that everybody is gaming the system - and eventually there won't be any system left to game.
markmoke wrote:
I am not in a position to fix something like that myself.
Me, I always steer clear of BOTH For Parts Not Working OR Perfectly Functional with ANY online marketplace if the item in question is outside my area of repair expertise - or outside my budget of sending it in to get repaired.

If I can fix it or afford to have it fixed - and then still have either enjoyment out of it later - or be able to flip it afterward and make money after I pay the repairman - then maybe. Otherwise 90% of common vintage (but not antique) electronics that were sold in the millions back in the day is simply not worth it from a commercial marketplace standpoint.

e.g. in the unlikely event I were to bid on or win any number of i.e. ``Panna Soney'' electronics and it came in all busted up or even with a few things wrong with it - I would game the system the same as everybody else to create the same stalemate as everybody else.

Conversely if I would win e.g. a Revere Stereo Cartridge Player or Cousino Diorama Tape Deck (ltd mfg in the early 60's) or anything else that wasn't all over the place back in the day - then I'd take it at face value - fix it myself or send it in - and go on about my business.

Especially counting in the potential for the above-referenced buyer/seller drama and especially again if one side is NOT protected in one or more of the 3 styles described herein - which just means that he's the easier target to get his claim denied since he can't cause a stalemate to the platform in question - simply not worth it for the common stuff.

But then I'm the same guy that cannibalizes old nicked up scratched up and busted up mid-century consoles that show up on curbs all over town and either builds or finds tabletop enclosures for them and sells them at the craft fair as Functional Art - and then takes all the original veneer, fiberboard and e.g. pinewood that they are all made out of and throws a bonfire the last night of the craft fair.

I've given so much 70's fiberboard/cardboard and 80's/90's black/silver plastic away to the few museums remaining that wanted `em, it's ridiculous and will probably go on like that for the foreseeable future. Everything that's leftover after that gets recycled.

Getting ready to do another recycle run here in the next few weeks if anybody wants to raid the stash.

_________________
2 kinds of men/tape. Low Noise/Wide Range.
LN=kind. WR=abrasive. Engineers=same thing.


Last edited by ndiamone on Jan Tue 02, 2018 1:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Ebay Money Back Guarantee
PostPosted: Jan Tue 02, 2018 1:43 am 
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Joined: Jun Wed 08, 2011 2:33 am
Posts: 6164
Location: Ohio 45177
So far I have not been burned as a seller and as a buyer I have had positive resolutions as my issues have been pretty outrageous in most cases. Except for the time I waited too long to get a refund. I have has some disappointments that turned out to be my own fault though, as in not doing research and thinking I knew about something before bidding. OF course I don't do anything about that! Exept live and learn. IF an item is obviously misrepresented, returns accepted or not, you should stand up for yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Ebay Money Back Guarantee
PostPosted: Jan Tue 02, 2018 6:28 am 
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Mark, EBay's Money Back Guarantee and whether a seller accepts returns are two unrelated things.

Money Back Guarantee: If eBay agrees that you got something different than what you bought, you WILL get your money back. eBay charges the cost back to the seller.

Seller accepts returns: The seller will take the item back if there's a reason to. If the seller says "No returns" it means he doesn't want the item back under any circumstance. A lot of antique and vintage electronics sellers don't seem to understand this concept.

Put the two concepts together: Let's say you file a SNAD case and eBay agrees with you. You get your money back, guaranteed. If the seller accepts returns, eBay will generate a shipping label for you to send the item back. If the seller does not accept returns, eBay doesn't make you return it. You keep the item.


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 Post subject: Re: Ebay Money Back Guarantee
PostPosted: Jan Wed 03, 2018 5:28 am 
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Joined: Sep Wed 03, 2008 1:24 am
Posts: 819
IF something is advertised as working, it means it works. If it doesn't work, then you're entitled to your money back. Sellers are not allowed to wordsmith their listing in such a way as to get around Ebay's money back guarantee.

OTOH, if you buy a 30 or even 50 year old piece of electronic equipment, and you find that the power output is 3% less than the original specifications, you may or may not be entitled to your money back. Even if you do get your money back, the seller will rightfully think you're being an idiot and will probably block you from bidding on his/her auctions in the future.

Beware of listings that say "Unable to test, don't know how to use, so being listed as-is for parts/not-working". Sometimes it could be a legit buy; more often, it means you're buying a bucket of rusty parts.


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 Post subject: Re: Ebay Money Back Guarantee
PostPosted: Jan Wed 03, 2018 5:52 pm 
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markmoke wrote:
Thanks guys. This is all good information.

I've bought a lot of different Yeasus, Kenwoods, etc over they years (and also sold them), but never on Ebay. I have always had good luck with used ham equipment. I just wanted to determine if I have any protection if I buy, say a Kenwood Ts-570D, that is represented as fully functioning. Then I find out a major feature doesnt work.

I am not in a position to fix something like that myself. It's not like a 6 tube Philco.

Mark K8KZ


Mark for my money on an item like this your better off shopping on https://www.qrz.com/ in the Swapmeet section. It is a searchable for sale database of stuff that is up for sale with prices and pictures. You can have a back and forth with the seller to determine yes or no or negotiate the price and then decide yes or no.

Over the last few years I have sold off several Ham Radio estates of deceased friends for the widows. Never had any issues with the buyers. Try it you will like it. At least your talking to someone who has a bit of knowledge about what they are trying to sell.
73
John k9uwa

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 Post subject: Re: Ebay Money Back Guarantee
PostPosted: Jan Wed 03, 2018 10:06 pm 
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Posts: 995
Location: Cascadia
Well, I just won an appeal as a seller: I got back $375 from a buyer who filed a not-as-described return and then opened a case because he couldn't get the item to work. (I had listed it as untested with no returns.)

eBay initially approved the return, the buyer sent the item back to me, eBay pulled $375 out of my PayPal account and gave it to the buyer, then eBay hit me with a "defect" on my seller account.

But turns out eBay hadn't done their homework: The buyer had sent me an email right after he won the auction saying he really hadn't meant to bid so high on an item that wasn't guaranteed to work. Clear evidence that he knew it might not work. I appealed the case and when I showed that email to the appeal agent on the phone, he overturned the decision right there. I got back my $375, the defect was removed, and I get to keep the item to sell again. I don't know what (if anything) they did to the buyer, but probably nothing since it was an eBay employee's mistake in approving the return.

As my old Classical Mechanics physics professor used to say when the math got too deep, "Sometimes there is justice in the universe and things just work out."

BTW: Both the eBay reps I spoke to in customer service regarding this were excellent: Good English and very knowledgeable about eBay's policies and system. They haven't all been so good over the years, but some are very good.

So I think an appeal is sometimes worth it.

John

(Sorry for posting this twice, but I think it's more relevant here than in the other thread where I first posted it...)


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 Post subject: Re: Ebay Money Back Guarantee
PostPosted: Jan Fri 05, 2018 4:52 pm 
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Location: Charlotte, NC
Lots of radios are now being listed under "for parts or repair" due to the recent increasing risk of dealing with a parts swapper. What can happen if you listed an otherwise good working Icom IC-7800 under the heading "for parts or repair?" Say it sold in the usual $3500 to $4000 range and the buyer swapped out a faulty and expensive circuit board from his Icom IC-7800 and opened a NAD case in order to return it and get a full refund.


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