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 Post subject: Re: PRINCELY PAUPER
PostPosted: Jan Sun 15, 2017 5:19 am 
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john8750 wrote:
Pbpix wrote:
Looks nice John.
I see you marked the chassis baffle with "L" & "R"
.... so I guess that's directional instructions for the mixed up electrons to follow in the dark?

"Looks nice" Compared to your work, no. I am proud of it though and sure it will perform as good as the power amp.
That L/R was put there for the name of a song I wanted to remember. But I cant remember what it stands for now.
So, I have all the commons connected to the star right at the B-. Where should I connect it to the chassis? If anywhere.
And here I thought it was so you could remember which wafers were Left and Right. :wink:

Try connecting the B- star to earth. Might have to change it later but it's as good a place as any to start with.

Btw, are your AC outlets on the fused or non fused side? Should be non fused.


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 Post subject: Re: PRINCELY PAUPER
PostPosted: Jan Sun 15, 2017 6:08 am 
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Flipperhome wrote:
john8750 wrote:
Pbpix wrote:
Looks nice John.
I see you marked the chassis baffle with "L" & "R"
.... so I guess that's directional instructions for the mixed up electrons to follow in the dark?

"Looks nice" Compared to your work, no. I am proud of it though and sure it will perform as good as the power amp.
That L/R was put there for the name of a song I wanted to remember. But I cant remember what it stands for now.
So, I have all the commons connected to the star right at the B-. Where should I connect it to the chassis? If anywhere.
And here I thought it was so you could remember which wafers were Left and Right. :wink:

Try connecting the B- star to earth. Might have to change it later but it's as good a place as any to start with.

Btw, are your AC outlet on the fused or non fused side? Should be non fused.



I will make the connection. The fuse protects only the preamp. The other outlets are switched, un-fused for the power amp and phonograph. Thanks Flip.

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 Post subject: Re: PRINCELY PAUPER
PostPosted: Jan Sun 15, 2017 8:30 pm 
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And here I thought it was so you could remember which wafers were Left and Right. :wink:

I wanted to keep the right and left side constant. But, the way I am, you can bet right now I screwed something up :!:

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 Post subject: Re: PRINCELY PAUPER
PostPosted: Jan Sun 15, 2017 8:45 pm 
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john8750 wrote:
And here I thought it was so you could remember which wafers were Left and Right. :wink:

I wanted to keep the right and left side constant. But, the way I am, you can bet right now I screwed something up :!:

So you feel that you're right about it being wrong despite all my positive hopes that you'll be wrong about being wrong and hopefully it will actually be right not wrong?
Is that right?
Or is it wrong for me to hope you'll be wrong in your self assessment and that you'll actually find you're right and it was wrong to believe you'd be wrong?
Is that right?

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To be a man, Be a non-conformist, Nothing's sacred as the integrity of your own mind.
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Last edited by Pbpix on Jan Sun 15, 2017 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: PRINCELY PAUPER
PostPosted: Jan Sun 15, 2017 8:57 pm 
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Pbpix wrote:
john8750 wrote:
And here I thought it was so you could remember which wafers were Left and Right. :wink:

I wanted to keep the right and left side constant. But, the way I am, you can bet right now I screwed something up :!:

So you feel that you're right about being wrong despite my hopes that you'll be wrong about being wrong?
Is that right?
Or is it wrong for me to hope you'll be wrong in your self assessment and that you'll actually find you're right and it was wrong to believe you'd be wrong?
Is that right?



I don't know Peter. I sometimes get wrong and right mixed up with left and right. So, if I am wrong, how much would be left of right? Or, how much right would be left, enough to be wrong? I appreciate you wishing I am right, but would it be wrong to be left, instead of right? But, I sure am happy to be my own Grampa.

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If I did something right, I made a mistake.


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 Post subject: Re: PRINCELY PAUPER
PostPosted: Jan Sun 15, 2017 9:04 pm 
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john8750 wrote:
Pbpix wrote:
john8750 wrote:
And here I thought it was so you could remember which wafers were Left and Right. :wink:

I wanted to keep the right and left side constant. But, the way I am, you can bet right now I screwed something up :!:

So you feel that you're right about being wrong despite my hopes that you'll be wrong about being wrong?
Is that right?
Or is it wrong for me to hope you'll be wrong in your self assessment and that you'll actually find you're right and it was wrong to believe you'd be wrong?
Is that right?



I don't know Peter. I sometimes get wrong and right mixed up with left and right. So, if I am wrong, how much would be left of right? Or, how much right would be left, enough to be wrong? I appreciate you wishing I am right, but would it be wrong to be left, instead of right? But, I sure am happy to be my own Grampa.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AvG6q_iTcA

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To be a man, Be a non-conformist, Nothing's sacred as the integrity of your own mind.
-Emerson


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 Post subject: Re: PRINCELY PAUPER
PostPosted: Jan Sun 15, 2017 9:13 pm 
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This explains it all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYlJH81dSiw

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If I did something right, I made a mistake.


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 Post subject: Re: PRINCELY PAUPER
PostPosted: Jan Mon 16, 2017 7:42 am 
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john8750 wrote:
Pbpix wrote:
john8750 wrote:
And here I thought it was so you could remember which wafers were Left and Right. :wink:

I wanted to keep the right and left side constant. But, the way I am, you can bet right now I screwed something up :!:
So you feel that you're right about being wrong despite my hopes that you'll be wrong about being wrong?
Is that right?
Or is it wrong for me to hope you'll be wrong in your self assessment and that you'll actually find you're right and it was wrong to believe you'd be wrong?
Is that right?
I don't know Peter. I sometimes get wrong and right mixed up with left and right. So, if I am wrong, how much would be left of right? Or, how much right would be left, enough to be wrong? I appreciate you wishing I am right, but would it be wrong to be left, instead of right? But, I sure am happy to be my own Grampa.
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 Post subject: Re: PRINCELY PAUPER
PostPosted: Jan Mon 16, 2017 10:09 pm 
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Its so good to know you all care about me. And, its not wrong to be right.

BTW I am packing up for the move home. So I will start testing the Little Prince next week, at home.

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John Smith, over and out.
If I did something right, I made a mistake.


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 Post subject: Re: PRINCELY PAUPER
PostPosted: Jan Mon 16, 2017 10:25 pm 
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john8750 wrote:
Its so good to know you all care about me. And, its not wrong to be right.

BTW I am packing up for the move home. So I will start testing the Little Prince next week, at home.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvJj7SN9EWI

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To be a man, Be a non-conformist, Nothing's sacred as the integrity of your own mind.
-Emerson


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 Post subject: Re: PRINCELY PAUPER
PostPosted: Jan Tue 17, 2017 2:19 am 
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Pbpix wrote:
john8750 wrote:
Its so good to know you all care about me. And, its not wrong to be right.

BTW I am packing up for the move home. So I will start testing the Little Prince next week, at home.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvJj7SN9EWI



Thanks Peter. You always make me feel better.
Did some work on my new shop at home today. Its not in bad shape. Just moving in all the stuff from the caboose.

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If I did something right, I made a mistake.


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 Post subject: Re: PRINCELY PAUPER
PostPosted: Jan Tue 17, 2017 4:44 am 
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john8750 wrote:
Pbpix wrote:
john8750 wrote:
Its so good to know you all care about me. And, its not wrong to be right.

BTW I am packing up for the move home. So I will start testing the Little Prince next week, at home.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvJj7SN9EWI



Thanks Peter. You always make me feel better.
Did some work on my new shop at home today. Its not in bad shape. Just moving in all the stuff from the caboose.

Is the shop in a separate bldg from your living space or just another room or area... like a spare bedroom of the mobile home?

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To be a man, Be a non-conformist, Nothing's sacred as the integrity of your own mind.
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 Post subject: Re: PRINCELY PAUPER
PostPosted: Jan Wed 18, 2017 1:39 am 
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My shop at home is a separate 10X16 building that I built for a model train room. It got taken over with my model airplane collection. So I put in a work bench, an easy chair and the Zenith. I have a good amount of electronic parts and tools all within that building. The train room will be located in the fourth bedroom in the house. It is the smallest room, 160sq feet. I also built a storage shed next to the shop, 120sq feet. Thinking about digging a basement, I know, a lot of work. But such a neat idea. And, the entire shop, including air conditioning and outside night lights are powered by a 600watt solar system. I got all the solar system parts for free. So the batteries, four golf cart 6volt deep cycles, are getting old. At a hundred plus each, might not be practical to replace them.
Back at the caboose now.

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 Post subject: Re: PRINCELY PAUPER
PostPosted: Jan Wed 18, 2017 4:18 am 
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At the risk of ruining the thread I'd like to actually talk about audio for a sec. :wink:

As I was wandering around the web I ran across this site. http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/amplifiers/ ... ivity.html I swear, there's so much misinformation, on a site that should know, it's no wonder people are confused. Take this: "However, sensitivity is rising to cope with legacy sources such as old tuners and cassette decks..." Oh really? Then what the heck did people use if older power amps weren't sensitive enough for the devices of the time? That is just pure nonsense.

I suspect it's because "old tuners and cassette decks" (indeed, most analog equipment) had their output rated at NOMINAL, vs the modern "Full Scale Output" of digital devices, so it LOOKS like their output is lower to those who don't know the difference.

Analog equipment doesn't have a 'hard limit' like digital. For analog, 'maximum output' is a matter of when distortion becomes excessive, but you can drive it further. Since there wasn't a 'maximum', per see, the measurement point was "average," or nominal. But with digital, since it has a hard limit, beyond which there just can't be any more, Full Scale Output became the measuring point. This causes about a 16 dB change in ratings. What, with analog equipment, was 316mV out (consumer line level) becomes 2 V(fso), but the two numbers represent that same amount of output (just measured differently). (There are some further subtleties but the rating are the ratings).

The article also says "All Compact Disc players produce 2V output maximum, because that’s the standard set for it." While it's true that's the 'standard', I've seen 4V players as well as 1V players. Oh well.

So what does this have to do with anything? Well, I was trying to find out what the typical cell phone output was, then the typical Bluetooth receiver, and what should the typical amplifier sensitivity be. Needless to say, I didn't get very far on the web, so I measured mine.

Using the 'preamp' gain (it's really software) I drove the output to hard clipping and measured a maximum of 1Vp (2Vpp), or .707V rms (fso). That is what, for a CD player, would be 2V RMS (fso). Of course, there is no 'standard' for cellphones (although they mostly fall around the same level) because it's a headphone output, not "consumer line level." Why 1Vp (2Vpp)? Well, a typical cellphone is power by a 3.8V battery and there has to be some 'unusable' voltage for transistor headroom so 2VPP is about all you can get (line level is 5.7 Vpp and clearly not possible, unless you did some fancy power conversion).

Turning the preamp back to neutral and playing a song at maximum volume gave peaks around (eyeballed) .5Vp, or around 350mV(rms). That sounds suspiciously close to the 316mV consumer line level but, remember, this is MAX, not nominal. It, again, corresponds to the 2Vrms CD line level but is -15dB down from it.

That's a heck of a range and is why people have so much trouble getting enough volume when plugging their cellphone into an amp.

Now, I don't know what battery their using in these little Chinese Bluetooth audio interfaces but it's output was only 350 mVp, or 250mVrms (fso). Which, of course, only makes it worse at -18 dB!

Remember, the Dynaco ST-35 took 1Vms for 17.5 Watt (max power). That would be fine for the 'standard' 2V (fso) CD players but, obviously, falls way short of a cellphone, must less Bluetooth interface.

Now, it would seem that at least 200 mVrms would be a good sensitivity but, besides that being problematic for a tube amp, the article right points out that it means the volume control would need little more than a crack to overdrive the output with a 2V CD player.


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 Post subject: Re: PRINCELY PAUPER
PostPosted: Jan Wed 18, 2017 10:16 pm 
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Hey Flip. That is just amazing. I read that article, and thought it made since. Until I applied your logic. I had to study hard to understand. Man, what an education. You should be teaching this theory. It sure would clear up some confusion.

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 Post subject: Re: PRINCELY PAUPER
PostPosted: Jan Wed 18, 2017 10:54 pm 
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A lot of horse**** out here on the net huh. We in pro audio circles have similar nonsense going around the net too. Our standards are a little more stable though if you go to a well setup radio studio they have levels defined as standards and are adhired to. Line level may be +4dbm on a balanced line with a terminating impedance of 600 ohms. If we hook up consumer tape decks we use a match box which will allow us to set levels both to and from the consumer equipment and take it to a balance condition as well. The only other real difference is mic level and that is as low as -50dbm. Of course we use preamps to get it to line level for distribution and use. The major difference we deal with is consoles with built in mic preamps otherwise all is at the same level. There used to be higher level standards of +8 dbm and more but that has settled down mostly.n the consumer world there are standards but different manufacturers and devices are all over the place. Not too bad but you must take it into consideration when building a control center (preamp) that has to deal with all these different levels. A god tube amplifier can be built so that the selector switch levels can be set for different inputs.


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 Post subject: Re: PRINCELY PAUPER
PostPosted: Jan Wed 18, 2017 10:56 pm 
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I received my Mallory UHF tuner box today. It has two 7pin sockets, and a good transformer. The case is in good shape, with not the original knobs, but they look OK. Flip, are there any usable components on board? Or is it all just scrap? I will use it for the two tube AM transmitter. Could the transformer be used, od should I get a new one?
This is the transmitter I will build.
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=132867&start=560
Soon as I get my shop in shape, next week, I will start testing the Little Prince.

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If I did something right, I made a mistake.


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 Post subject: Re: PRINCELY PAUPER
PostPosted: Jan Wed 18, 2017 11:06 pm 
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Audioman wrote:
A lot of horse**** out here on the net huh. We in pro audio circles have similar nonsense going around the net too. Our standards are a little more stable though if you go to a well setup radio studio they have levels defined as standards and are adhired to. Line level may be +4dbm on a balanced line with a terminating impedance of 600 ohms. If we hook up consumer tape decks we use a match box which will allow us to set levels both to and from the consumer equipment and take it to a balance condition as well. The only other real difference is mic level and that is as low as -50dbm. Of course we use preamps to get it to line level for distribution and use. The major difference we deal with is consoles with built in mic preamps otherwise all is at the same level. There used to be higher level standards of +8 dbm and more but that has settled down mostly.n the consumer world there are standards but different manufacturers and devices are all over the place. Not too bad but you must take it into consideration when building a control center (preamp) that has to deal with all these different levels. A god tube amplifier can be built so that the selector switch levels can be set for different inputs.



And here is another great bit of info I never thought about. I, like the average consumer, only thinks that if it plugs into an amp, more watts the better, it will sound great. But the difference in ones like me and most others is a little understanding about looking for the rated frequency response and THD. Until I joined this forum, I had no knowledge about the THD being rated at a specified level. So I am learning and very interested. Thanks so much to you guys, you can teach an old dog some new tricks.

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If I did something right, I made a mistake.


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 Post subject: Re: PRINCELY PAUPER
PostPosted: Jan Wed 18, 2017 11:55 pm 
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john8750 wrote:
I received my Mallory UHF tuner box today. It has two 7pin sockets, and a good transformer. The case is in good shape, with not the original knobs, but they look OK. Flip, are there any usable components on board? Or is it all just scrap? I will use it for the two tube AM transmitter. Could the transformer be used, od should I get a new one?
This is the transmitter I will build.
http://antiqueradios.com/forums/viewtop ... &start=560
Soon as I get my shop in shape, next week, I will start testing the Little Prince.

Is the schematic shown on the 1st page of that 30 page thread the final version?

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 Post subject: Re: PRINCELY PAUPER
PostPosted: Jan Thu 19, 2017 12:04 am 
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john8750 wrote:
Audioman wrote:
A lot of horse**** out here on the net huh. We in pro audio circles have similar nonsense going around the net too. Our standards are a little more stable though if you go to a well setup radio studio they have levels defined as standards and are adhired to. Line level may be +4dbm on a balanced line with a terminating impedance of 600 ohms. If we hook up consumer tape decks we use a match box which will allow us to set levels both to and from the consumer equipment and take it to a balance condition as well. The only other real difference is mic level and that is as low as -50dbm. Of course we use preamps to get it to line level for distribution and use. The major difference we deal with is consoles with built in mic preamps otherwise all is at the same level. There used to be higher level standards of +8 dbm and more but that has settled down mostly.n the consumer world there are standards but different manufacturers and devices are all over the place. Not too bad but you must take it into consideration when building a control center (preamp) that has to deal with all these different levels. A god tube amplifier can be built so that the selector switch levels can be set for different inputs.


And here is another great bit of info I never thought about. I, like the average consumer, only thinks that if it plugs into an amp, more watts the better, it will sound great. But the difference in ones like me and most others is a little understanding about looking for the rated frequency response and THD. Until I joined this forum, I had no knowledge about the THD being rated at a specified level. So I am learning and very interested. Thanks so much to you guys, you can teach an old dog some new tricks.

I think THD - total harmonic distortion - can be misleading.
Most people think of the word "distortion" to mean an unintelligible jumble of noise.
But it actually means that in the process of amplifying the input signals certain harmonics can be generated and added to the original.
To some ears those added harmonics can seem to actually improve the listener's enjoyment level.
But the fact that ANYthing extra was added to the signal it is technically no longer the pure "original" signal only and therefore it has been "distorted" or modified from the pure original.

It is the harmonics which help distinguish certain sounds. For instance when you play a musical note "A" (440 Hz) on a flute and on a saxophone they will not sound the same even though they are in fact both creating the 440Hz as the primary frequency... but the acoustic construction of the flute and the sax are much different and that is what adds extra elements or harmonics to the mix of each instrument's "A".

For amplifyer specs, perhaps it would have been better to describe it as "Total Harmonic Content added"

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Last edited by Pbpix on Jan Thu 19, 2017 3:09 am, edited 4 times in total.

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