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 Post subject: Re: What does "Fatter Tone" mean in output tube description?
PostPosted: Nov Thu 16, 2017 3:46 pm 
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Location: South Jersey East of Philly
Quote:
EL34 tubes that have an enlarged shape, are called fat boys. They are highly sought after for their fatter tone

Here's what they say about those EL-34's in the article...and we're back to the typical Kool-Aid adjectives a player wants to hear to break loose some heavy $$$ on them...Obviously they choose the 'best' electrons to make this tube sound good...
"... This tube is known for excellent performance, incredible bottom end, rich liquid midrange, outstanding highs. Described as a phenomenal sounding EL34, one of the most rugged Big-Bottle EL34's ever made, recommended, clean, and powerful.  These fat boys have a super polished and quite refined top end. A Major improvement over other 6CA7's.  Get rid of those Chinese or Russian 6CA7's and UPGRADE to GE USA - which are Superior by far to Svetlana or Sovtek 6CA7


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 Post subject: Re: What does "Fatter Tone" mean in output tube description?
PostPosted: Nov Tue 21, 2017 3:51 am 
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Tbirdkid wrote:
Quote:
EL34 tubes that have an enlarged shape, are called fat boys. They are highly sought after for their fatter tone

Here's what they say about those EL-34's in the article...a]"... This tube is known for excellent performance, incredible bottom end, rich liquid midrange, outstanding highs. Described as a phenomenal sounding EL34, one of the most rugged Big-Bottle EL34's ever made, recommended, clean, and powerful.  These fat boys have a super polished and quite refined top end .. blah blah blah...]
So they are a nice tube but they are only fat in shape, and cost more because they look better? At least I think that's what he said. Clean and powerful isn't 'fatter'. Is it?

Anyway, they can be whatever he says they are, and they will sell for whatever the going price may be. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: What does "Fatter Tone" mean in output tube description?
PostPosted: Dec Tue 19, 2017 4:20 pm 
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Joined: Jan Mon 12, 2009 7:38 am
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Location: homestead, fl
you guys do know those "fat tone" terms are mainly used by musicians, not audiophools?

while the terms may be amusing, there is a difference in the sound. if you dont believe it find a musical piece you are very familiar with and do a little audio chain tube rolling (swapping for the in house comedians) on a good hifi amp hooked to a good speaker.


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 Post subject: Re: What does "Fatter Tone" mean in output tube description?
PostPosted: Dec Wed 20, 2017 3:56 am 
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Location: South Jersey East of Philly
Quote:
...while the terms may be amusing, there is a difference in the sound. if you dont believe it find a musical piece you are very familiar with and do a little audio chain tube rolling (swapping for the in house comedians) on a good hifi amp hooked to a good speaker.
OK, going with topic and that idea, how do I know if my musical selection has a 'fatter tone' when swapping tubes? Tone is really a personal perception... Is it louder, bassier, clearer, dirtier...etc? I've been fixing, playing guitars/amps for 50 years, and all the vintage tube descriptive nonsense with grey/black plates, grey glass and hype of that sort is just a way to create a mystique and a market, and allowing them to overprice and sell tubes that are essentially the same electronically.


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 Post subject: Re: What does "Fatter Tone" mean in output tube description?
PostPosted: Dec Wed 20, 2017 9:53 pm 
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Location: Sunnyvale CA
Tbirdkid wrote:
Quote:
...while the terms may be amusing, there is a difference in the sound. if you dont believe it find a musical piece you are very familiar with and do a little audio chain tube rolling (swapping for the in house comedians) on a good hifi amp hooked to a good speaker.
OK, going with topic and that idea, how do I know if my musical selection has a 'fatter tone' when swapping tubes? Tone is really a personal perception... Is it louder, bassier, clearer, dirtier...etc? I've been fixing, playing guitars/amps for 50 years, and all the vintage tube descriptive nonsense with grey/black plates, grey glass and hype of that sort is just a way to create a mystique and a market, and allowing them to overprice and sell tubes that are essentially the same electronically.


It's all subjective and a legitimate point of discussion in the guitar amp world to which they are attempting to market. A properly-designed hi-fi audio circuit doesn't use the areas of the performance envelope that would be related to what they are discussing. Tube audio amplifiers are somewhat influenced by the output tube performance and different tubes do sound (and measure) differently, but the better the amplifier design, the less it is dependent on the quirks in the performance of the particular tube. Mimimalist SET amplifiers are almost entirely dependent on the specific tubes used. for example, and many people decide they have preferred tube brands and specific tubes for different kinds of music. All that speaks to is a defect in the design, in this case, an entirely open-loop system.

Brett


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 Post subject: Re: What does "Fatter Tone" mean in output tube description?
PostPosted: Dec Thu 21, 2017 3:28 am 
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Well said.

-David


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 Post subject: Re: What does "Fatter Tone" mean in output tube description?
PostPosted: Dec Fri 22, 2017 5:54 am 
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dberman51 wrote:
Well said - David
+2
Cheers,
Roger

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 Post subject: Re: What does "Fatter Tone" mean in output tube description?
PostPosted: Dec Fri 22, 2017 3:47 pm 
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Brett, I want to refer to your statement in the future.
It sums the whole thing up perfectly. Thank you!

-Steve

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 Post subject: Re: What does "Fatter Tone" mean in output tube description?
PostPosted: Jun Sun 24, 2018 7:19 pm 
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Location: homestead, fl
Fat tone means bass heavy. Thats how musicians have explained it to me.

its easy to discount some of this stuff and granted, some is a bit over the top, but to say tube rolling makes no change is bunk. you have to have a good ear (that cares, not everybody with good hearing gives a hoot), good gear, and good speakers. im not talking mega thousand dollar items here. im saying dont expect to hear a difference on your 1939 philco cathedral but do expect to hear a change in your fisher x100 tube amp on some jbls, altecs, tannoys, or similar.

the most obvious i have heard is with brand new soviet block or chinese tubes. listen to one fresh out of the box then leave the amp playing but walkaway for a few hours. after a few hours burn in there will be a noticeable mellowing out.

its fine if you dont buy into it but pooping all over the idea without giving it a fair chance is not very sporting.


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 Post subject: Re: What does "Fatter Tone" mean in output tube description?
PostPosted: Jun Mon 25, 2018 1:18 am 
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ke4mcl wrote:
... the most obvious i have heard is with brand new soviet block or chinese tubes. listen to one fresh out of the box then leave the amp playing but walkaway for a few hours. after a few hours burn in there will be a noticeable mellowing out...
Would you say this if you did not know what tubes were actually in the amplifier when you returned? Try a blind test with an independent person randomly changing the tunes from "new tubes" to "several-hours-of-use tubes". Could you walk back in and say correctly which was being used significantly more than 50% of the time?
Cheers,
Roger

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 Post subject: Re: What does "Fatter Tone" mean in output tube description?
PostPosted: Jun Mon 25, 2018 2:48 am 
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I do have a question to those who go by tube rolling. Did audiophiles of the 1950s and early 60s roll their tubes?

-Steve

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 Post subject: Re: What does "Fatter Tone" mean in output tube description?
PostPosted: Jun Mon 25, 2018 4:31 am 
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ke4mcl wrote:
Fat tone means bass heavy. Thats how musicians have explained it to me.

its easy to discount some of this stuff and granted, some is a bit over the top, but to say tube rolling makes no change is bunk. you have to have a good ear (that cares, not everybody with good hearing gives a hoot), good gear, and good speakers. im not talking mega thousand dollar items here. im saying dont expect to hear a difference on your 1939 philco cathedral but do expect to hear a change in your fisher x100 tube amp on some jbls, altecs, tannoys, or similar.

the most obvious i have heard is with brand new soviet block or chinese tubes. listen to one fresh out of the box then leave the amp playing but walkaway for a few hours. after a few hours burn in there will be a noticeable mellowing out.

its fine if you dont buy into it but pooping all over the idea without giving it a fair chance is not very sporting.
That's all well and good but to take 'tube rolling' seriously I'd have to first be presented with some theory as to what could scientifically cause the claimed effects. Just saying "it does" and "try it" doesn't cut it.


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 Post subject: Re: What does "Fatter Tone" mean in output tube description?
PostPosted: Jun Mon 25, 2018 2:08 pm 
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Flipperhome wrote:
ke4mcl wrote:
Fat tone means bass heavy. Thats how musicians have explained it to me.

its easy to discount some of this stuff and granted, some is a bit over the top, but to say tube rolling makes no change is bunk. you have to have a good ear (that cares, not everybody with good hearing gives a hoot), good gear, and good speakers. im not talking mega thousand dollar items here. im saying dont expect to hear a difference on your 1939 philco cathedral but do expect to hear a change in your fisher x100 tube amp on some jbls, altecs, tannoys, or similar.

the most obvious i have heard is with brand new soviet block or chinese tubes. listen to one fresh out of the box then leave the amp playing but walkaway for a few hours. after a few hours burn in there will be a noticeable mellowing out.

its fine if you dont buy into it but pooping all over the idea without giving it a fair chance is not very sporting.
That's all well and good but to take 'tube rolling' seriously I'd have to first be presented with some theory as to what could scientifically cause the claimed effects. Just saying "it does" and "try it" doesn't cut it.

Exactly. When I visit the "other site", if the topic mentions "tube rolling", I simply move on because it will usually be rather full of Bovine Scat and subjective, unsubstantiated comments.

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 Post subject: Re: What does "Fatter Tone" mean in output tube description?
PostPosted: Jun Tue 26, 2018 8:49 pm 
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Joined: May Mon 14, 2018 6:14 pm
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As a guitar player, I can say a fatter tone generally means more low end frequency. I am not sure how a tube would do that. I know replacing a .022 tone cap with a .047 generally results in a fatter tone, but I've never had the same result by simply changing out a tube.


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 Post subject: Re: What does "Fatter Tone" mean in output tube description?
PostPosted: Jun Tue 26, 2018 8:55 pm 
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Makes me think of the joke....

"Hey, I'm as fit as a fiddle!"

"Yeah, a BASS fiddle...."

:D

-Steve

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 Post subject: Re: What does "Fatter Tone" mean in output tube description?
PostPosted: Jun Tue 26, 2018 9:32 pm 
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There's fat.... and then there is PHAT!


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 Post subject: Re: What does "Fatter Tone" mean in output tube description?
PostPosted: Jun Tue 26, 2018 9:40 pm 
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rdnzl wrote:
There's fat.... and then there is PHAT!

PHAT is measured pF(at).


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 Post subject: Re: What does "Fatter Tone" mean in output tube description?
PostPosted: Jul Thu 05, 2018 12:30 pm 
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I keep a large stock of 12AX7 and 6L6 tubes on hand at all times, so I can swap them out mid-song if I want fatter or thinner tone. I've sorted them into piles of "silky" "fat" "smooth" "liquid" "polished" and "punchy". I save the punchy ones for when I'm drinking. As for rolling tubes, I take that one step further .. I am literally rolling in tubes. It makes a nice high end sharp edged crackling sound, interspersed with occasional tinkling like wind chimes, without the fat tone effect. It's positively steller, I tell ya.

Perhaps I should sort them by artist ... certain tubes should only be used for Metallica, others for John Denver. And a special set for Tiny Tim.

You know what occurs to me ??? I can probably simulate all of the above special tonal qualities by using the. ... wait for it .... tone controls :) Or <bygod> a graphic equalizer. OMG NOOOOOOOOOOOOOo

:)

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 Post subject: Re: What does "Fatter Tone" mean in output tube description?
PostPosted: Jul Thu 05, 2018 1:05 pm 
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Barry H Bennett wrote:
I keep...
You know what occurs to me ??? I can probably simulate all of the above special tonal qualities by using the. ... wait for it .... tone controls :) Or <bygod> a graphic equalizer. OMG NOOOOOOOOOOOOOo

:)

Ya think....???

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 Post subject: Re: What does "Fatter Tone" mean in output tube description?
PostPosted: Jul Thu 05, 2018 2:05 pm 
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Quote:
its fine if you dont buy into it but pooping all over the idea without giving it a fair chance is not very sporting.

I expect that most theories about audio reproduction have been given MORE than a fair chance in the peer-reviewed literature or other competent forums. This does not include things that do not pass a high school physics "laugh test". (Cryo-treated AC outlets anyone?)

The reason things get "pooped on" here is that there is a rather high concentration of people that are highly knowledgable. You want to see some serious pooping, try BSing a college professor, or equivalent subject matter expert.

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