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 Post subject: Re: What does "Fatter Tone" mean in output tube description?
PostPosted: Aug Tue 29, 2017 1:06 am 
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jmsent wrote:
Tube Radio wrote:
Fatter tone to me means the tube is different than the original spec for the tube number hence the different sound and should have its own tube number, because if it were the same exact tube it would have the same sound as all other tubes of that type.

An example.

I do know that a new manufacture 12AT7 will not work as the FM oscillator in some German radios. Simply does not oscillate. So to me it should have its own tube number because it's obviously not a 12AT7 if it don't work in a circuit designed for a 12AT7.


Which German radio uses a 12AT7 in the oscillator? Every one I've ever seen uses either a 6AQ8 or a pair of 6AB4's.


The RCA 9-INT-1 uses the 12AT7 as both an FM RF amp and FM converter.


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 Post subject: Re: What does "Fatter Tone" mean in output tube description?
PostPosted: Aug Tue 29, 2017 12:56 pm 
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Tube Radio wrote:
jmsent wrote:
Tube Radio wrote:
Fatter tone to me means the tube is different than the original spec for the tube number hence the different sound and should have its own tube number, because if it were the same exact tube it would have the same sound as all other tubes of that type.

An example.

I do know that a new manufacture 12AT7 will not work as the FM oscillator in some German radios. Simply does not oscillate. So to me it should have its own tube number because it's obviously not a 12AT7 if it don't work in a circuit designed for a 12AT7.


Which German radio uses a 12AT7 in the oscillator? Every one I've ever seen uses either a 6AQ8 or a pair of 6AB4's.


The RCA 9-INT-1 uses the 12AT7 as both an FM RF amp and FM converter.


Ok, that's a sum total of 1, from an American company that had design input on a product built in Germany. That's hardly representative of what you normally find in a German radio. The "big players" (Grundig, Telefunken) never used the 12AT7 for this purpose, to my knowledge. As for the 12AT7, you will find that tube used extensively as RF amp/Oscillator in US and Japanese AM/FM sets. It's your statement about "some German radios" that might lead one to believe it was used extensively in German radios. It wasn't.

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 Post subject: Re: What does "Fatter Tone" mean in output tube description?
PostPosted: Aug Wed 30, 2017 5:46 pm 
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The main point was that a new manufacture 12AT7 may not necessarily work as an FM oscillator.

If it was used extensively in German radios I would have said a lot of German radios, but I said some which to me means it wasn't used extensively.


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 Post subject: Re: What does "Fatter Tone" mean in output tube description?
PostPosted: Aug Wed 30, 2017 9:45 pm 
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Without getting too far off topic, I should mention that a 12DT8 is very similar to a 12AT7, with the difference being that the former has an electrostatic shield plate between the two sections for improved isolation at VHF. The shield plate is connected to the pin where the heater center tap would connect in a 12AT7 (a 12DT8 cannot be operated from a 6.3 V heater supply).

I have a Lloyd's AM/FM radio (non-German) that uses two 12DT8s in the FM front end section. The stages contained in those tubes are: grounded grid RF amplifier, mixer, local oscillator, and AFC reactance.

I also have a video scope that uses a 12AT7 for the high impedance buffer stage (the rest is solid state). I once substituted a 12DT8 in a pinch, and the scope worked perfectly.


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 Post subject: Re: What does "Fatter Tone" mean in output tube description?
PostPosted: Sep Mon 04, 2017 6:05 pm 
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Alfredo_T wrote:
... a 12DT8 is very similar to a 12AT7, with the difference being that the former has an electrostatic shield plate between the two sections for improved isolation at VHF. The shield plate is connected to the pin where the heater center tap would connect in a 12AT7 (a 12DT8 cannot be operated from a 6.3 V heater supply)...
You can sub a 12AT7 for a 12DT8 in an FM front end if you snip off pin 9 on the 12AT7 tube (use a sharp side-cutter and snip close to the glass.) Be careful to insert it correctly as rotation reference is lost is lost w/o pin 9.
Cheers,
Roger

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 Post subject: Re: What does "Fatter Tone" mean in output tube description?
PostPosted: Sep Tue 05, 2017 3:32 am 
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just means they are trying to ask for more $$


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 Post subject: Re: What does "Fatter Tone" mean in output tube description?
PostPosted: Sep Wed 06, 2017 8:19 pm 
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It had access to all the leftover pizza in the engineering lab before it left on the truck?

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 Post subject: Re: What does "Fatter Tone" mean in output tube description?
PostPosted: Sep Wed 27, 2017 9:09 pm 
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Mark D wrote:
I prefer my OEM British made Mullards. They seem to last a very long time compared with the Chinese and Russian stuff.
But they all sound the same to me. Tubes don't have a "sound". If they're made to the specification of the tube number, they SHOULD sound the same.

Mark D.


Aha, but go on a guitar from with that heretical view and a dozen angry men involved in the amp refurbishment and modification business will insult everything from your sense of hearing to your basic intelligence and technical training.

In your heart you know that that 75 Telefunken tube with the slightly darker grey plates and the larger getter spot is much "fatter" and more "organic" sounding than the version with the lighter colored plates, and provides a more "stable" and "three dimensional" soundstage......


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 Post subject: Re: What does "Fatter Tone" mean in output tube description?
PostPosted: Sep Fri 29, 2017 2:56 pm 
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I always refer this site to my guitar playing friends that drink the Kool Aid and buy into the black plate vs. grey plate...and all that other smoke and mirror tone stuff they buy into....http://tone-lizard.com/vintage-amp-myths/
He lays it out straight, and they don't want to hear that. I'm a guitar player too, but find you get you get more results in tone change from speakers than any tube change. If you change out a tube that is on it's last legs, then you will hear a difference in 'tone'.


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 Post subject: Re: What does "Fatter Tone" mean in output tube description?
PostPosted: Nov Mon 13, 2017 5:24 pm 
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Tube Depot has this about a JJ Tubes EL34 "The JJ EL34 is a very open sounding tube with a little less bass response but with crisper highs than the JJ E34L. It is electrically equivalent to any other EL34. " Open sounding? What on earth, or off of it does THAT mean? I don't pay attention to the audiophool write ups...I just order what I want. I've used both Tube Depot and AES for tubes. Tube Depot sends a little sticker along with the order. How cool is that? (read in sarcastic tone of voice).
RW

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 Post subject: Re: What does "Fatter Tone" mean in output tube description?
PostPosted: Nov Mon 13, 2017 5:29 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: What does "Fatter Tone" mean in output tube description?
PostPosted: Nov Mon 13, 2017 5:51 pm 
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It is called MARKETING; means what you want it to mean.

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 Post subject: Re: What does "Fatter Tone" mean in output tube description?
PostPosted: Nov Mon 13, 2017 6:45 pm 
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Bruce Hagen wrote:
It is called MARKETING; means what you want it to mean.
It's like...

We're within 1% of reliability of the other guys. <--where they hope you confuse reliability with coverage.

What they are really saying is that "IF we have coverage our system stays up and running almost as well as the other guys."

Guaranteed speed of up to 20 MegaBits/S (or whatever number). <-- Where no one points out that Zero is in the "up to 20 Meg" range (i.e., 0-to-20 Meg).

Century Link in our area is making a big deal out of the "Price for Life" based on a plan that is UP TO 20 Mb/S. Their claim is that they won't ever charge you more unless you change your plan (that sounds awfully familiar). Well, that's easy. They start turning down your rate which is still "UP TO 20 Mb/S" (no lie) until you find it necessary to change plans and then your price goes up. They know people read the UP TO 20 Mb/S as if that is an average or better yet a minimum value that they are guaranteeing. In reality all they have guaranteed is that they will not let you have a rate higher than that (it's a cap on the rate).

So crisper highs is just more mumbo jumbo that is there to confuse people into thinking it actually means something when indeed it is meaningless or even worse (someone's interpretation of crisper might even be some distortion that was introduced).

Curtis Eickerman

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 Post subject: Re: What does "Fatter Tone" mean in output tube description?
PostPosted: Nov Mon 13, 2017 7:13 pm 
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I am guitar player and tech for many years and have to laugh at the 'snake oil' they use when describing tubes so the players can drink the Kool-Aid.. Here's a selected collection of actual write-up descriptions on some 12AX7's from a magazine...

The valve has a very warm detailed and harmonically rich midrange.
..has been designed to give a smooth harmonic slope which gives a warm crunch.
...a nice warm chime that was excellent.
The valve also has a really clear bass response which is very clear and precise.
a full sweet distortion and gives a really warm crunch and reduced the upper end fizz and hardness.
The valve is very punchy and has a tight focused sound with a nice rounded bass.
The valves sound is very rhythmical and dynamic especially in the bass.
The valve did smooth out that spiky hard high end.
The mid-range is very transparent if a little lean and with less warmth.
This resulted in a crisp even distortion that never sounded hard or harsh.


At times it sounds like they're reviewing a hot fudge sundae with nuts, and a glass of champagne---"a full sweet distortion and gives a really warm crunch and reduced the upper end fizz and hardness:.... :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: What does "Fatter Tone" mean in output tube description?
PostPosted: Nov Mon 13, 2017 7:41 pm 
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Well they may be meaningless but

    "warm crunch"

    and

    "upper end fizz"

... are priceless. :wink:

Curtis Eickerman

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 Post subject: Re: What does "Fatter Tone" mean in output tube description?
PostPosted: Nov Mon 13, 2017 8:19 pm 
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Curt...those two almost made me spit out my coffee on my work keyboard!

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 Post subject: Re: What does "Fatter Tone" mean in output tube description?
PostPosted: Nov Mon 13, 2017 9:38 pm 
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radiowizard wrote:
What does "Fatter Tone" mean?
Substitute "wallet" for "tone" and the meaning becomes obvious.

- Leigh

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 Post subject: Re: What does "Fatter Tone" mean in output tube description?
PostPosted: Nov Tue 14, 2017 12:31 pm 
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To me, "fatter tone" means more distortion which some people find desirable.

Dave


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 Post subject: Re: What does "Fatter Tone" mean in output tube description?
PostPosted: Nov Tue 14, 2017 12:52 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: What does "Fatter Tone" mean in output tube description?
PostPosted: Nov Wed 15, 2017 11:02 pm 
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EL34 tubes that have an enlarged shape, are called fat boys. They are highly sought after for their fatter tone. Photos here: https://www.tubemuseum.org/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=GE6CA7

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