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 Post subject: Re: Russian "paper in oil" capacitors
PostPosted: Sep Fri 14, 2018 2:51 pm 
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Tbirdkid wrote:
This sort of stuff has been floating around in the guitar amp world for years now. 'Musical' capacitors get a following, and a $0.50 cap now becomes an $8.00 cap. I think the oil-filled caps are filled with snakeoil... :wink:

Hear, hear!

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 Post subject: Re: Russian "paper in oil" capacitors
PostPosted: Sep Fri 14, 2018 7:54 pm 
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As a cancer patient, my wife has heard many outlandish "cures" for her condition. The latest one she mentioned was for "magic stones", which were to be inserted in a "body opening" (I can't say which one), to rid the body of negative forces, including cancer. When the stones stopped working, they were to be removed, and recharged under the light of a full moon! She and her doctor had a good laugh over that one. The placebo effect is widespread, and not limited to the audio field.

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 Post subject: Re: Russian "paper in oil" capacitors
PostPosted: Sep Fri 14, 2018 9:13 pm 
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I'm going to start marketing oil-filled vacuum tubes and see if that catches on.

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 Post subject: Re: Russian "paper in oil" capacitors
PostPosted: Sep Fri 14, 2018 9:49 pm 
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Quote:
I'm going to start marketing oil-filled vacuum tubes and see if that catches on.

Make sure you use only high quality audio oil, or you may run into marketing difficulties :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Russian "paper in oil" capacitors
PostPosted: Sep Mon 17, 2018 9:02 pm 
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I just don't see russian "anything" being better than what we produce in the US, with the exception of making something that is more robust. I don't see them making a capacitor that has these "finesse" qualities people are touting.

If the capacitor has self-healing qualities, perhaps this is why the russian military use them.


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 Post subject: Re: Russian "paper in oil" capacitors
PostPosted: Sep Mon 17, 2018 9:38 pm 
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I have applied audio from an HP 200 type oscillator to a plastic film cap before and heard weak sound coming from it(at certain freqs). But the HP puts out alot of voltage. That would prove to me that there is a physical reaction to the electrostatic field in the cap to make audible sounds. Never had a resistor make sounds. Anyway, I can see that electrolytics might "break in" sort of, in use. That is like "forming" them I guess. I would not fabricate implausable positive attributes to a particular type of cap and try to sell on that basis, but if I had a bunch of caps that people were willing to pay alot for, lying around, and there was a market, I would gladly sell out my inventory for a sweet profit, and they can make of them what they will. Arriving already convinced of some specialness I would not demean their beliefs and try to discourage purchase.


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 Post subject: Re: Russian "paper in oil" capacitors
PostPosted: Sep Mon 17, 2018 11:09 pm 
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I personally feel that the Russian oil filled caps are actually filled with Borscht.............

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 Post subject: Re: Russian "paper in oil" capacitors
PostPosted: Sep Tue 18, 2018 6:21 pm 
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Don Cavey wrote:
Mark, this has been my contention all along. Someone makes up some rubbish and it catches on. "Sonic Qualities", "Breaking In a Capacitor". I got into a brief discussion with some idiot on one of the audio forums had he was spouting all kinds of rubbish to people about breaking in the capacitor. When I questioned that "process", I was berated and he insisted that I produce my credentials.

Another made-up noun today is monoblock. It has always been called a basic amplifier. No preamplifier, no tone controls and often no volume controls.

Any doubt why I refer to them as cork sniffers? Too much red wine at night will fuel the imagination.


Non-sense. The capacitors flourished because they sounded excellent. Audiophiles have much more critical ears than vintage radio listeners. On the other hand a vintage radio listener prefers a good signal, not audio quality that excels beyond the vintage receiver capabilities. A poly type cap will perform well in this application.


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 Post subject: Re: Russian "paper in oil" capacitors
PostPosted: Sep Tue 18, 2018 6:37 pm 
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I suppose next we’ll hear about needing to “break in the resistors”. I doubt this will ever end. There is always more hype just around the corner. When the buyers are ready, the salespeople will appear.

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 Post subject: Re: Russian "paper in oil" capacitors
PostPosted: Sep Tue 18, 2018 6:42 pm 
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allied333 wrote:
Non-sense. The capacitors flourished because they sounded excellent. Audiophiles have much more critical ears than vintage radio listeners. On the other hand a vintage radio listener prefers a good signal, not audio quality that excels beyond the vintage receiver capabilities. A poly type cap will perform well in this application.

Nonsense yourself. Golden-eared audiophiles are just engaged in magical thinking, unless the supposed audible effect can be shown in reproducible double-blind tests. And it hasn't. Otherwise it's all just confirmation bias - they hear what they want to hear.

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 Post subject: Re: Russian "paper in oil" capacitors
PostPosted: Sep Tue 18, 2018 7:00 pm 
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“The capacitors flourished because they sounded excellent”. ...... huh? Capacitors don’t generally ‘sound’ at all. They probably flourished because they reliably met specification. In that regard, the amp would likely sound better than one with components that did not. Am I missing something here?

Maybe we need heavy gage steel riveted plates to make up the chassis so it cannot flex under the strain of audio. Perhaps an I beam or two.

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 Post subject: Re: Russian "paper in oil" capacitors
PostPosted: Sep Tue 18, 2018 7:08 pm 
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allied333 wrote:
Don Cavey wrote:
Mark, this has been my contention all along. Someone makes up some rubbish and it catches on. "Sonic Qualities", "Breaking In a Capacitor". I got into a brief discussion with some idiot on one of the audio forums had he was spouting all kinds of rubbish to people about breaking in the capacitor. When I questioned that "process", I was berated and he insisted that I produce my credentials.

Another made-up noun today is monoblock. It has always been called a basic amplifier. No preamplifier, no tone controls and often no volume controls.

Any doubt why I refer to them as cork sniffers? Too much red wine at night will fuel the imagination.


Non-sense. The capacitors flourished because they sounded excellent. Audiophiles have much more critical ears than vintage radio listeners. On the other hand a vintage radio listener prefers a good signal, not audio quality that excels beyond the vintage receiver capabilities. A poly type cap will perform well in this application.

Nonsense. Where is the data that supports this?

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 Post subject: Re: Russian "paper in oil" capacitors
PostPosted: Sep Tue 18, 2018 7:08 pm 
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Barry H Bennett wrote:
I suppose next we’ll hear about needing to “break in the resistors”. I doubt this will ever end. There is always more hype just around the corner. When the buyers are ready, the salespeople will appear.

Hear, hear!

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 Post subject: Re: Russian "paper in oil" capacitors
PostPosted: Sep Tue 18, 2018 10:08 pm 
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I have never seen test data that supports the claims made for "audio-grade" capacitors. Every time someone brings up this topic, the same question gets asked and there is no answer.**

This thread speaks to the psychology behind some of the claims:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=346654

** test means double-blind. It would be trivial to rig a test to get the desired answer....eg when you switch to the magic part, add a bit of bass and treble boost, and darned iif it won't sound better.....;)

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 Post subject: Re: Russian "paper in oil" capacitors
PostPosted: Sep Tue 18, 2018 10:37 pm 
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stevebyan wrote:
allied333 wrote:
Non-sense. The capacitors flourished because they sounded excellent. Audiophiles have much more critical ears than vintage radio listeners. On the other hand a vintage radio listener prefers a good signal, not audio quality that excels beyond the vintage receiver capabilities. A poly type cap will perform well in this application.

Nonsense yourself. Golden-eared audiophiles are just engaged in magical thinking, unless the supposed audible effect can be shown in reproducible double-blind tests. And it hasn't. Otherwise it's all just confirmation bias - they hear what they want to hear.

What are you talking about? Double blind tests are used in evaluating audio. I can easily tell you have little experience in high-end audio, yet acting like you are an expert. Please. Read about different capacitors sound here-

http://diyaudioprojects.com/mirror/memb ... /caps.html


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 Post subject: Re: Russian "paper in oil" capacitors
PostPosted: Sep Tue 18, 2018 11:01 pm 
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allied333 wrote:
What are you talking about? Double blind tests are used in evaluating audio. I can easily tell you have little experience in high-end audio, yet acting like you are an expert. Please. Read about different capacitors sound here-

http://diyaudioprojects.com/mirror/memb ... /caps.html

That web link shows very little difference between the types of film caps.

Show me a reproduced double-blind test that shows an audible difference due to capacitors, excluding crappy hi-K ceramic discs.


You're darn right I don't have experience with high-end audio, because most of it is bunk. Magic cables, magic capacitors, magic power outlets. No thanks.

I will take a good pair of speakers, if someone is willing to give me a good price.

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 Post subject: Re: Russian "paper in oil" capacitors
PostPosted: Sep Tue 18, 2018 11:24 pm 
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stevebyan wrote:
allied333 wrote:
What are you talking about? Double blind tests are used in evaluating audio. I can easily tell you have little experience in high-end audio, yet acting like you are an expert. Please. Read about different capacitors sound here-

http://diyaudioprojects.com/mirror/memb ... /caps.html

That web link shows very little difference between the types of film caps.

Show me a reproduced double-blind test that shows an audible difference due to capacitors, excluding crappy hi-K ceramic discs.


You're darn right I don't have experience with high-end audio, because most of it is bunk. Magic cables, magic capacitors, magic power outlets. No thanks.

I will take a good pair of speakers, if someone is willing to give me a good price.[/quote

Revised- poor communication skills. I recommend Revel Performa M22 speakers. They are a real bargain used, About $800 a pair.. There is a ton of BS involved in high-end audio. For me zip cord are fine speaker wires, not a pair of $1000 cables. But, some items work well such as coupling capacitors and certain brands of tubes.


Last edited by allied333 on Sep Tue 18, 2018 11:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Russian "paper in oil" capacitors
PostPosted: Sep Tue 18, 2018 11:30 pm 
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I am going yet another step further .... right off the edge of the flat earth perhaps ....

Those Borscht filled capacitors? They can actually translate any language to Russian :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Russian "paper in oil" capacitors
PostPosted: Sep Wed 19, 2018 11:34 am 
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allied333 wrote:

Revised- poor communication skills. I recommend Revel Performa M22 speakers. They are a real bargain used, About $800 a pair.. There is a ton of BS involved in high-end audio. For me zip cord are fine speaker wires, not a pair of $1000 cables. But, some items work well such as coupling capacitors and certain brands of tubes.


Again, many of us think that capacitors belong more in the BS category. If double-blind testing has been done, we'd like to see the test reports.

FYI---your edit lost a closing quote....it makes it look like you said some things that actually came from the post you quoted.

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 Post subject: Re: Russian "paper in oil" capacitors
PostPosted: Sep Wed 19, 2018 4:31 pm 
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I have often contemplated selling the bumblebee and firecracker caps I replace on every recap. My conscience has prevented it, thus far.


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