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 Post subject: Re: Hidden gem of a car: Chevy Cruze hatch diesel 6 speed ma
PostPosted: Oct Thu 11, 2018 12:09 pm 
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26K is pricey for another abortion put out by a company that was bankrupt and bailed out by the Gov. Compare the Cruz to the Vega, Corvair Monza and the beat goes on.


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 Post subject: Re: Hidden gem of a car: Chevy Cruze hatch diesel 6 speed ma
PostPosted: Oct Thu 11, 2018 1:08 pm 
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Uh... Might I remind you that every single US automaker was either or has been bailed out by the government at one time or another? So if that's the case what is your point?

And at the end of day 26 thousand dollars isn't exactly a huge amount of money. Especially considering that the best selling Vehicles right now are large size SUVs and trucks, and many of those trucks are kissing the 75 to $80,000 mark. It's all about perspective.

"I'm not trying to pee on your parade... just trying to understand why anyone likes diesel..."

How about you go and actually drive one of these before drawing judgement? At this point everything you're saying is pretty much hearsay anyway. Why do you think I made this post? It's because the car I drove was rather surprising as far as how good it was and you really can't make that determination unless you actually experience it yourself


Last edited by bobwilson1977 on Oct Thu 11, 2018 1:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Hidden gem of a car: Chevy Cruze hatch diesel 6 speed ma
PostPosted: Oct Thu 11, 2018 1:09 pm 
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hoffies2 wrote:
26K is pricey for another abortion put out by a company that was bankrupt and bailed out by the Gov. Compare the Cruz to the Vega, Corvair Monza and the beat goes on.


Keep in mind that the Japanese government had to bail out Toyota during the same economic crash.


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 Post subject: Re: Hidden gem of a car: Chevy Cruze hatch diesel 6 speed ma
PostPosted: Oct Thu 11, 2018 2:29 pm 
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Pbpix wrote:
bobwilson1977 wrote:
Because of the torque that a diesel engine gives you over a gas engine. That and the torque is almost instantly available and usable versus a gas engine that naturally lacks that torque. Why? Because a diesel engine has far greater compression by design ( diesel engines use high compression to ignite the fuel versus a gas engine that uses lower compression and a spark plugs and)

So this difference creates a alternative driving experience.

Really? More torque is that exciting?

How about all the downsides like the high cost of diesel fuel compared to gasoline, and the terrible black exhaust and especially the stinking exhaust smell, and what about that loud noisy engine that sounds like a bunch of marbles?

I've only driven diesel cars in Europe, where they are still very popular due to the price of gas being 2-3x that of the price in the US. Got close to 50mpg, so their popularity is justified.

I will say that there is no noticeable odor, or even noise for that matter. I think people still think of the diesel cars from the '80's and '90's; while I cannot speak to the Chevy Cruze, I can tell you that modern day diesel cars are very different in a number of respects.

To correct some other misinformation in this thread:

- Diesel engines for passenger autos do not need to be rebuilt as part of ongoing maintenance.

- Diesel engines do require maintenance, some of which is unique to diesel engines. Like gas cars, if you neglect the basic maintenance, you will shorten the lifespan of the engine.

- Yes, some diesel engines do require the use of urea. The urea is typically refilled during an oil change, or every 10K-12K miles.

- Replacement engine parts for cars from Mercedes and GM are typically available for many years.

Diesel cars aren't for everybody, and they do present additional headaches if you live in a cold climate (most of Europe has milder winters than the northern US). Like with any vehicle, there are tradeoffs. Some folks like carburetor engines from the 1970's because they are easily repaired; others like today's modern engines. Some people place a higher value on resale value than others; others care more about gas mileage. None of these concerns are wrong.

EDIT: Diesel engines have one notable disadvantage. If you should spill some gasoline on your hands, it just smells for a minute. Spill diesel on your hands, and they feel real oily (and they smell awful) for like an hour afterwards. Yes, I know you're supposed to use those throwaway gloves when fueling, but does anyone actually do that?


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 Post subject: Re: Hidden gem of a car: Chevy Cruze hatch diesel 6 speed ma
PostPosted: Oct Thu 11, 2018 4:51 pm 
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bobwilson1977 wrote:
Uh... Might I remind you that every single US automaker was either or has been bailed out by the government at one time or another?
Not Ford.

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 Post subject: Re: Hidden gem of a car: Chevy Cruze hatch diesel 6 speed ma
PostPosted: Oct Thu 11, 2018 5:28 pm 
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In April I bought a 2018 GMC Sierra Denali 2500HD with the 6.6L turbo-diesel which is my third GMC 2500HD with the Duramax diesel. I had some concerns about the 2018 coming from a 2006 diesel that didn't have a particulate filter or DEF but so far the only thing I have noticed is the mileage drop during a brief regen. The engine is extremely quiet and at idle sounds like a typical gas engine courtesy of the multi-shot injection which produces multiple small combustion events instead of one large one.

I haven't driven any of the light diesel cars lately but the torque curve of the diesel engine results in nicer drivability in many situations with the pickup where you don't have an engine screaming at high RPM. The current L5P generation engine will develop 400 pound feet of torque at 1,000 RPM and hits its peak torque of 910 pound feet at 1,600 RPM before gradually dropping to around 830 pound feet at its 2800 RPM 445 HP peak. Even under heavy load it produces a very relaxed driving feel pulling hills at low RPM with its torque converter still locked. I test drove a couple of gas powered HDs before I bought this one because I didn't want to deal with the additional emissions stuff of modern diesels but I couldn't bring myself to give up the operational characteristics of the diesel and Allison automatic transmission. If I was buying a light duty pickup I may well have gone with gas. The 2018 gets 19-20 MPG cruising at 78 MPH and will do around 24 MPG at 60 MPH which isn't bad for an 8,000 pound curve weight 4x4 crew cab.

Bob, I appreciate you sharing your thoughts on this car. One of the advantages of forums like these is you do learn new things and some people reading this may add this car to their decision set next time they go car shopping. For the most part ARF has a high S to N ratio but there are always going to be those who believe THEIR desires and selection are the ONLY logical choice. I alternate between three very different vehicles and each serves its purpose well. My 2014 Cadillac ATS gets the most miles and its 3.6 V6 in RWD configuration averages in the high 24 range in mixed driving with 30-32 at interstate cruising speed and develops 321 HP using cheap 87 octane gas. My least practical but most fun 2016 Corvette Z06 will soon be going into hibernation for the winter. It will actually get pretty good fuel mileage at cruising speed on the interstate (around 25 MPG) but most of the time I am not driving a 650HP Corvette in a manner designed to maximize fuel economy so it has a pretty big appetite for the 93 octane fuel it requires. If I were to go with only one vehicle it wouldn't be any of the three current ones because none would suit all of my needs by itself :)

One feature this forum lacks compared to many forums is an ignore user option which is very much like a nice IF filter for cutting out annoying interference.

Rodger WQ9E


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 Post subject: Re: Hidden gem of a car: Chevy Cruze hatch diesel 6 speed ma
PostPosted: Oct Thu 11, 2018 5:55 pm 
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If you go to the "User control panel" you can add a user name to your "foe" list to avoid reading their posts.

best regards,
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 Post subject: Re: Hidden gem of a car: Chevy Cruze hatch diesel 6 speed ma
PostPosted: Oct Thu 11, 2018 5:56 pm 
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Sandy wrote:
If you go to the "User control panel" you can add a user name to your "foe" list to avoid reading their posts.

best regards,
Sandy


Thanks very much Sandy! I wasn't looking for the right command.

Rodger WQ9E


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 Post subject: Re: Hidden gem of a car: Chevy Cruze hatch diesel 6 speed ma
PostPosted: Oct Thu 11, 2018 6:09 pm 
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Quote:
Not Ford


Yes, Ford too....
https://www.thebalance.com/auto-industr ... er-3305670


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 Post subject: Re: Hidden gem of a car: Chevy Cruze hatch diesel 6 speed ma
PostPosted: Oct Thu 11, 2018 6:41 pm 
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FStephenMasek wrote:
bobwilson1977 wrote:
Uh... Might I remind you that every single US automaker was either or has been bailed out by the government at one time or another?
Not Ford.

+ 1 Ford accepted funds not because of bankruptcy but to develop new technology to keep pace with Chrysler and GM loans. Ford will always be #1 in development for USA car makers.


Last edited by hoffies2 on Oct Thu 11, 2018 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Hidden gem of a car: Chevy Cruze hatch diesel 6 speed ma
PostPosted: Oct Thu 11, 2018 6:42 pm 
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bobwilson1977 wrote:

Perhaps you should read the entire article, GM and Chrysler received bailouts which cost the taxpayers 10 billion dollars. "Ford Credit received its bailout from the Term Asset-Backed Securities Loan Facility, not TARP. That was a government program for auto, student, and other consumer loans." Ford will repay their loan by 2022 and the taxpayers will make money on it.

Dave


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 Post subject: Re: Hidden gem of a car: Chevy Cruze hatch diesel 6 speed ma
PostPosted: Oct Thu 11, 2018 6:58 pm 
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bobwilson1977 wrote:

The discussion as to whether Ford was "bailed out" leads to several potential ratholes. It is correct that Ford was never restructured by the government a-la GM and Chrysler. Ford's stock shares continued to trade, and its bonds were still serviced.

Ford did take advantage of government loan programs that were put in place around the time of the 2008 recession, although at least some of those loan programs were unrelated to the recession. Whether Ford would have been able to remain liquid without those loans is difficult if not impossible to answer.

In the FWIW department, there was a prescient article in Fortune around 2006 that basically stated that GM was essentially bankrupt at that time, and would likely need help if the economy should ever happen to cool. Also, FWIW, Ford's corporate structure is a bit different in that the Ford family owns all of the Class B shares, which gives them 40% voting rights.

Again, whether a potential car buyer should take any of this into account is a personal decision for which there is no right or wrong answer, no matter what anyone claims to the contrary.


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 Post subject: Re: Hidden gem of a car: Chevy Cruze hatch diesel 6 speed ma
PostPosted: Oct Thu 11, 2018 6:59 pm 
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The bailouts cost the taxpayer nothing. Both GM and Chrysler paid back their loans pretty quickly.


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 Post subject: Re: Hidden gem of a car: Chevy Cruze hatch diesel 6 speed ma
PostPosted: Oct Thu 11, 2018 7:39 pm 
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Ken Doyle wrote:
The bailouts cost the taxpayer nothing. Both GM and Chrysler paid back their loans pretty quickly.

The bottom line is still a 10 billion loss to the taxpayer after the loans were repaid, the loans were a different program.

Dave


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 Post subject: Re: Hidden gem of a car: Chevy Cruze hatch diesel 6 speed ma
PostPosted: Oct Thu 11, 2018 7:44 pm 
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Ken Doyle wrote:
The bailouts cost the taxpayer nothing. Both GM and Chrysler paid back their loans pretty quickly.

Where do you get this from? According to the article "bobwilson1977" posted, the government lost 10.2 billion.

Quote:
Bailout Details
Here's the bailout breakdown. It shows what the government invested. It then shows what Treasury sold the shares for, including what it received in its debt repayment. It then calculates the taxpayer’s profit or loss.

Company Invested Sold For Profit/Loss Date Bailout Ended
GM $51.0 billion $39.7 billion -$11.3 billion Dec. 9, 2013
GMAC (Ally) $17.2 billion $19.6 billion +$2.4 billion Dec. 18, 2014
Chrysler $12.5 billion $11.2 billion -$1.3 billion May 2011
TOTAL $80.7 billion $70.5 billion - $10.2 billion

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 Post subject: Re: Hidden gem of a car: Chevy Cruze hatch diesel 6 speed ma
PostPosted: Oct Thu 11, 2018 7:52 pm 
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It was a $10B loss on the purchase and subsequent selling of the shares. But it all got rolled as a rounding error into the TARP program, which showed an overall net gain.

There are lots of other factors to look at: opportunity cost of the money used to buy shares, cost to borrow the money for the bailout, tax income from the employees and businesses that stayed afloat, savings from not disbursing additional unemployment payments, cost to the original GM/Chrysler bondholders, potential economic dislocations throughout the auto supply chain and the broader economy (housing, etc.), ..... And on and on and on....

It's much like the launch of the original IBM PC in 1981. To this day, noone knows if IBM made or lost money on it, nor does it appear likely anyone ever will. Same applies to the bailouts of 2008.


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 Post subject: Re: Hidden gem of a car: Chevy Cruze hatch diesel 6 speed ma
PostPosted: Oct Thu 11, 2018 7:59 pm 
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You can color this any way you want, but the article states flatly that the cost to the taxpayers was 10.2 billion. Now if that was the cost to prevent a depression and save the U.S. auto industry, it was money well spent.

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 Post subject: Re: Hidden gem of a car: Chevy Cruze hatch diesel 6 speed ma
PostPosted: Oct Thu 11, 2018 8:07 pm 
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fifties wrote:
You can color this any way you want, but the article states flatly that the cost to the taxpayers was 10.2 billion. Now if that was the cost to prevent a depression and save the U.S. auto industry, it was money well spent.

I wasn't trying to color it, and I don't disagree with anything you said.

It's not much different than buying a car: I will cost me money in depreciation, fuel, insurance, repair, etc. I will never "make" money on it. However, without a car, I would either be unemployed, or spending a lot more money getting to and from my job.


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 Post subject: Re: Hidden gem of a car: Chevy Cruze hatch diesel 6 speed ma
PostPosted: Oct Thu 11, 2018 11:35 pm 
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bobwilson1977 wrote:

"I'm not trying to pee on your parade... just trying to understand why anyone likes diesel..."

How about you go and actually drive one of these before drawing judgement? At this point everything you're saying is pretty much hearsay anyway.

Hearsay?
It's NOT hearsay.... not when I personally witness it.
And I have personally heard all those rattling marbles -in-a-jar sounding engines... ALL of them.
Never heard a quiet one.. not ever ... not in all my 76 years.
So that's NOT "hearsay"

But if you love to hear rattling marbles instead of a nice quite purr.... then good luck to you.

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 Post subject: Re: Hidden gem of a car: Chevy Cruze hatch diesel 6 speed ma
PostPosted: Oct Fri 12, 2018 12:14 am 
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Pbpix wrote:
bobwilson1977 wrote:

"I'm not trying to pee on your parade... just trying to understand why anyone likes diesel..."

How about you go and actually drive one of these before drawing judgement? At this point everything you're saying is pretty much hearsay anyway.

Hearsay?
It's NOT hearsay.... not when I personally witness it.
And I have personally heard all those rattling marbles -in-a-jar sounding engines... ALL of them.
Never heard a quiet one.. not ever ... not in all my 76 years.
So that's NOT "hearsay"

But if you love to hear rattling marbles instead of a nice quite purr.... then good luck to you.


Well here is a modern diesel running full throttle to 60: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gESmM3fLrXU

and this is about as loud as it gets when it is started after sitting overnight well below 0, starts easily and slowly ramps up RPM under the fast warmup strategy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvOWw1qy5BI

Even with my Corvette Z06 exhaust set to tour instead of track mode it is considerably louder than my "noisy" diesel pickup and the cabin of my pickup is much quieter than my Cadillac and Corvette both at idle and at road speed. Most modern diesels don't sound anything like the old single shot mechanically injected smokers of the past. I much prefer the diesel sound at idle to the loud clicking that comes from the cam driven high pressure injection pump on most current direct injected gas engines. My diesel cold starts quickly and immediately settles to a steady 600 RPM idle with no searching or stumble without having to jump to fast idle to keep running; the only time it goes to fast idle is when it is below 32 ambient and that is only to provide quicker warmup and is not needed to keep the engine running smoothly.

Rodger WQ9E


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