I'm writing a book and have a fire scene that I'm not sure how it should evolve.

There is a small (few feet wide, few feet tall, few feet deep) steel safe on the second story of a wooden saloon. Inside the safe are some cloth cotton pouches filled with gold dust, and some loose papers. The building quickly burns down and the safe is in the rubble. Gold melts at 1947F, steel melts at 2600F, paper burns at 480F, and cotton burns at 410F. The safe is sealed tight enough that air can't get inside.

So, the questions are: Will the gold dust fuse together? Will the cotton pouches burn? Will the papers burn?

Appreciate any thoughts...

I believe there would be only scorching of the paper and cotton,
as fire needs oxygen. As to whether the gold dust would melt
and fuse would depend on the Safe's Temperature Rating

Typical house burns around 1100° f, so the metals won't melt. There is enough air already in the safe to burn the cloth and paper. HOWEVER, if the safe is insulated well enough, only time will be the main factor in the cloth and paper. A simple steel plate safe, like the old days would very likely allow the inside temp to climb enough to get the paper and cloth. A modern safe may be rated for 2 hours, and paper is, well....SAFE

http://www.firesciencecolleges.com/blog ... ouse-fire/

Scorched, but readable?

I have no idea what a temperature rating on the safe would be. It was built in the 1870's.

Readable? Possibly.
Re; Safe: I thought this was hypothetical?

SEE: http://www.klsecurity.com/ul_fire_rating.htm
"For example, if the temperature inside a safe or file exceeds
350°F, it will fail the UL test for paper rated products."
However, UL wasn't Founded until 1896.

Thanks Tony. I was using a fire temperature of 1832F which is on the high side, so that means the paper and cloth would burn...based on your input. I'll have to do some safe research now/


Yes it is, but I need to write as accurately as I can.

Wouldn't One need to know the size-interior cubic feet/inches?
in order to calculate amount of oxygen? ...and how much paper?

I read once about a safe that fell thru the second and first floors,
landing in the basement. It's contents survived even though the
extent of the Fire had exceeded the safe's 'Safe' Temp. Rating @
a longer time.

The last question... how long will the fire burn? 19th centuy safes may have walls exceeding 4". If you had a 1 sqft 4" thick slab of iron and put a fire underneath it, it would be a long time (hours) before you couldn't touch the top.

That leads me to another issue... the time that has to elapse between the fire burning out and the safe being cool enough to open. It would take at least a couple hours.

If you want to research, you cannot use any current data for safes. These old iron boxes are entirely different animals. It's not unusual to see the old ones identified by tonnage... 1 ton... 2 tons... 5 tons... etc.

Here's something else to think about, though irrelevant - there have been several cases where an old refrigerator was recovered from a house fire and was found to still be cool inside.

That's SOOO funny...I almost added to the bottom of
my post: "Don't worry, Nick will be here any minute now
to straighten us all out..."

Thanks for the suggestions and they are helping me to understand what can happen. I did come across a link that mentions 'a safe, within a safe' concept. So there were considerations for fire, however no technical details :http://en.allexperts.com/q/Antique-Safes-3774/2012/2/late-1800-diebold-safe.htm

Here's one from "The Antique Safe Collector"

3,200lb (~1.5 tonnes)
Rated as dynamite proof.

Any date on that safe?

The input I've gotten has directed my brain into the proper direction. I'm now thinking a fire proof safe would have preserved the contents. Here is some good historical info from Diebold : http://www.diebold.com/150/photo_safes.htm

The building burned quickly-heat and gasses straight up- safe fell to rubble where
cool updraught originated from and just rested in the glowing embers.

If the building burned quickly, it was because is wasn't built with enough fuel, otherwise
the safe would not have fallen through.

Basically a frame structure, but a lot of kerosene lanterns and such, plus some gunpowder. Figure the insulation was sawdust and the floors were wood.

In 1870 wood construction would burn very rapidly unless built of full logs. Probably little or no fire blocking between floors so fire that starts on the lower floor would have raced up the walls and into the attic and anything heavy would have fallen through the floor very soon. No fireproof materials etc. unless this was a very well constructed building.

I don't think the contents of the safe would have been damaged in any way. I was a vol. fireman and was Assistant Chief and I've been to enough building fires to believe in my answer.

Sawdust doesn't burn well at all. If gets shaken up in a fire, it sort of explodes, other wise
it just glows on the surface. like punkwood.

I worked in a power plant that burned hog fuel and needed thousands of HP of draught
to get any heat out of fuel.

Everything was alight, to some extent with sawdust, and the biggest mistake, (done that)
is to try and get the burning dust off our wire trays with a fire hose.

Thanks Dennis. The construction would have been pit sawed lumber and shoddy construction, compared to today. It was shortly after 1876 that a few saw mills were constructed for the mining camp. So I think with a fire proof/resistant safe of the time, the type of fire, and your experience gives me confidence that the contents would be OK.

Suspect humidity is a factor?

Oh yes. In any kind of moderate humidity, it's like you're (trying to) burn wet wood. At any rate... it tends to explode (moderately) rather than burn. Clouds of flour in a fire can explode to the point of causing structural damage, however.

Nick, what year is that safe you posted the picture of???