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 Post subject: Re: Possible Alien Bacteria Found On ISS Exterior
PostPosted: Dec Mon 04, 2017 3:53 pm 
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Flipperhome wrote:
pixellany wrote:
National Geographic did a special issue a while back called "The American War on Science". One of the things that got my attention was the percentage of Americans that believe that humans and dinosaurs co-existed. I would have been shocked if it were 10-20%-----but their number was more like 50%.....I've known a few of these people at times...like the neighbor who asked me if astronomy and astrology were the same thing.....
Ignorance is not a 'war on'.

cool!!---Leigh leaves some bacteria on the ISS, and we wind up careening around the far reaches of cosmology, arguing about subjects where 98% of us are not qualified, and now it's the definition of "war"......;)

OK: Ignorance causes war....but then war can also cause ignorance. But "declaring war on something" is sometimes just a euphemism---eg the "war on poverty"

Let us now move to Philosophy: What would be the social implications of discovering a cure for stupidity? I argue that it would not be a good thing......

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Alien Bacteria Found On ISS Exterior
PostPosted: Dec Mon 04, 2017 5:22 pm 
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I think it would be good. If I wasn't so stupid, I wouldn't drink or smoke and would probably have a lot more money. Not sure how "stupid" I was for having four kids, but they all turned out well.
People wouldn't take drugs or commit stupid crimes. A neighborhood guy stole $250,000 from our firehouse (over a ten year period) What did he do with the money? Paid for all his friends and family to travel to Los Vegas for his daughter's wedding. Now THAT was stupid.
I bet we would hardly need a police department. A big city would only need Andy Griffith and Don Knots to take care of things.

Keep in mind that not being stupid isn't the same thing as being smart. A not-stupid person might still get a tattoo they can't afford, but they wouldn't sell their SNAP card to pay for it.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Alien Bacteria Found On ISS Exterior
PostPosted: Dec Mon 04, 2017 7:03 pm 
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SkyKing wrote:
pixellany wrote:
... My two cents about the Big Bang Theory - If I say, "I have a theory the guy next door is a Russian spy." it's not the same type of theory as when a scientist says, "I have a theory the universe is expanding." A scientific theory can't be disproved. If one aspect of the theory is disproved, it is no longer a theory and it goes out the window.
I think you meant to say a scientific theory CAN be disproved.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Alien Bacteria Found On ISS Exterior
PostPosted: Dec Mon 04, 2017 7:11 pm 
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SkyKing wrote:
pixellany wrote:
...like the neighbor who asked me if astronomy and astrology were the same thing.


Girls/women would ask my daughter what she was studying in college. She would reply, "Cosmology." The next question was, "Can you do my hair?"

My two cents about the Big Bang Theory - If I say, "I have a theory the guy next door is a Russian spy." it's not the same type of theory as when a scientist says, "I have a theory the universe is expanding." A scientific theory can't be disproved. If one aspect of the theory is disproved, it is no longer a theory and it goes out the window.


That's not quite how science works.

When a theory is formed, scientists work to generate a number of testable hypotheses both in support and in refutation to the theory. And then experiments are design to test those hypotheses. If experimental results indicate that the refuting hypothesis is correct, the theory is often modified. Sure, in some cases, theories may be "thrown out" altogether, but not always.

For example, Newton's laws break down over very small (subatomic) or very large (interstellar) scales. However, scientists did not actually throw Newton's theories out the window. Instead, quantum theory and relativity were formed instead.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Alien Bacteria Found On ISS Exterior
PostPosted: Dec Mon 04, 2017 7:42 pm 
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Flipperhome wrote:
I think you meant to say a scientific theory CAN be disproved.


Yes, that's why it's a theory. Once it's disproved it's no longer a theory, unless it is modified as lexrageorge mentioned.

The reason I wrote it as "can't" be disproved is because the theory would then cease to be. It was sort of like saying you can't kill a dead thing. I guess I just worded it in a negative way.

I haven't gone through Pixellany's "not stupid" procedure yet, so I'm typing stuff about "theories" I learned 50 years ago. I do remember the phrase "Big Bang" was was made in derision of the theory, and the name stuck.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Alien Bacteria Found On ISS Exterior
PostPosted: Dec Mon 04, 2017 8:13 pm 
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The universe is expanding into the vast absolute vacuum of infinite space beyond our universe. To the infinity of outer space, our universe looks like an incredibly dense area of matter, and outer space is simply attempting to come to equilibrium by filling the void, which being infinite, it can never do.
At least that is my theory and I am sticking to it...for now anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Alien Bacteria Found On ISS Exterior
PostPosted: Dec Mon 04, 2017 9:29 pm 
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Flipperhome wrote:
As for red shift...

Red shift results when a visible light emitter recedes away from us at a significant speed.
That causes the apparent frequency of the light to decrease, changing its hue toward red.

When looking at emission lines from known sources such as sodium lines, the exact frequency is quite stable and very accurately known, so it's easy to determine its red shift.

The problem with red shift is easy to describe and very difficult to explain.

When observing distant stellar emitters, the measured red shift seems to be the same regardless of which direction we look. The only way that can happen within our understanding of physics is if we are at the center of the sphere of expansion.

- Leigh

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Alien Bacteria Found On ISS Exterior
PostPosted: Dec Mon 04, 2017 9:33 pm 
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Flipperhome wrote:
SkyKing wrote:
pixellany wrote:
... My two cents about the Big Bang Theory - If I say, "I have a theory the guy next door is a Russian spy." it's not the same type of theory as when a scientist says, "I have a theory the universe is expanding." A scientific theory can't be disproved. If one aspect of the theory is disproved, it is no longer a theory and it goes out the window.
I think you meant to say a scientific theory CAN be disproved.

BEEEEEEEEP---ERROR, ERROR---BEEEP
pixellany did not say that

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Alien Bacteria Found On ISS Exterior
PostPosted: Dec Mon 04, 2017 9:51 pm 
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pixellany wrote:
threeneurons wrote:
I've trying to keep my mouth out of this one, but there seem to be a lot of misconceptions of science

National Geographic did a special issue a while back called "The American War on Science". One of the things that got my attention was the percentage of Americans that believe that humans and dinosaurs co-existed. I would have been shocked if it were 10-20%-----but their number was more like 50%.....

Frankly that's not surprising, given that pop culture, feature movies, fictional and comic books, artwork, etc. do display humans (estimated life on Earth, about 200,000 to one million years) living at the same time as Dinosaurs (estimated period of extinction, 65 million years ago).
Unfortunately species evolution is apparently not taught in grammar school, so "knowledge" of it is garnered wherever.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Alien Bacteria Found On ISS Exterior
PostPosted: Dec Tue 05, 2017 2:06 am 
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"Theory" in scientific terms isn't quite how a lot of people suppose. Evolution has been proven, it's not up for debate, but there are still mechanisms that aren't understood, or gaps in the fossil record, &c. Thus the "Theory of Evolution." See the difference?

None of this, btw, should alarm religious folks, science and religion has a long intertwined history, many, many scientific discoveries were made by people of great faith. In the West, the Church probably provided a lot of the funding. Applied science without ethics always ends quite badly.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Alien Bacteria Found On ISS Exterior
PostPosted: Dec Tue 05, 2017 2:30 am 
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Ted wrote:
"Theory" in scientific terms isn't quite how a lot of people suppose. Evolution has been proven, it's not up for debate, but there are still mechanisms that aren't understood, or gaps in the fossil record, &c. Thus the "Theory of Evolution." See the difference?

None of this, btw, should alarm religious folks, science and religion has a long intertwined history, many, many scientific discoveries were made by people of great faith. In the West, the Church probably provided a lot of the funding. Applied science without ethics always ends quite badly.
You're quite right. The reason it does alarm some religious folks is some science zealots have tried to use 'science' to 'disprove' religious beliefs.

Perhaps the most egregious example, familiar to most in the sciences, is the mischaracterization of the Galileo prosecution as a "battle between Science and Religion." It was no such thing. The Church was actually quite amenable to "the earth moves." Galileo was prosecuted for promulgating unproven science as "fact." No where did this supposed 'battle' between religion and science appear until a couple of hundred years later.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Alien Bacteria Found On ISS Exterior
PostPosted: Dec Tue 05, 2017 2:32 am 
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pixellany wrote:
Flipperhome wrote:
I think you meant to say a scientific theory CAN be disproved.

BEEEEEEEEP---ERROR, ERROR---BEEEP
pixellany did not say that
My apologies. I got my nested quotes screwed up.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Alien Bacteria Found On ISS Exterior
PostPosted: Dec Tue 05, 2017 2:50 am 
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SkyKing wrote:
Flipperhome wrote:
I think you meant to say a scientific theory CAN be disproved.


Yes, that's why it's a theory. Once it's disproved it's no longer a theory, unless it is modified as lexrageorge mentioned.

The reason I wrote it as "can't" be disproved is because the theory would then cease to be. It was sort of like saying you can't kill a dead thing. I guess I just worded it in a negative way.....
What do you think this is, the Soviet Union? :lol: The theory doesn't magically vanish, it's simply disproven.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Alien Bacteria Found On ISS Exterior
PostPosted: Dec Tue 05, 2017 2:54 am 
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Flipperhome wrote:
pixellany wrote:
Flipperhome wrote:
I think you meant to say a scientific theory CAN be disproved.

BEEEEEEEEP---ERROR, ERROR---BEEEP
pixellany did not say that
My apologies. I got my nested quotes screwed up.

quested notes---they explain a lot

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Alien Bacteria Found On ISS Exterior
PostPosted: Dec Tue 05, 2017 3:03 am 
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Leigh wrote:

When observing distant stellar emitters, the measured red shift seems to be the same regardless of which direction we look. The only way that can happen within our understanding of physics is if we are at the center of the sphere of expansion.

- Leigh


Not if the entire universe is expanding in all directions. The red shift would appear the same no matter where you are. This is why we can't find the "center" of the universe.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Alien Bacteria Found On ISS Exterior
PostPosted: Dec Tue 05, 2017 3:05 am 
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Perhaps the bacteria is what happened 50 years later after some of the astronauts space walked for the first time. They probably farted in space and the molecules were spun through space at 22,000 miles a second, colliding with space junk and ultimately turning into bacteria.not sure why you guys wasted 20 pages discussing this...


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Alien Bacteria Found On ISS Exterior
PostPosted: Dec Tue 05, 2017 3:08 am 
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SkyKing wrote:
Not if the entire universe is expanding in all directions. The red shift would appear the same no matter where you are. This is why we can't find the "center" of the universe.

That is precisely the point.

A single point in isolation (e.g. a planet or star) has no "direction".

A direction is a line which is defined by two points.

If the universe is expanding uniformly in all directions, then ...
the point of observation MUST be the center.

No other geometry is possible within our sphere of knowledge.

- Leigh

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Alien Bacteria Found On ISS Exterior
PostPosted: Dec Tue 05, 2017 3:28 am 
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I don't think the universe is expanding uniformly in all directions. Further, I do not believe that the Earth is the center of the universe.

If I'm correct on both counts, then Leigh wins. Regardless, "If you can't be right, at least try to be consistent".....:)

I started to read the Wikipedia article on red shift, but I ran out of neurons on the first page.....

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Alien Bacteria Found On ISS Exterior
PostPosted: Dec Tue 05, 2017 3:46 am 
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Leigh wrote:
Flipperhome wrote:
As for red shift...

Red shift results when a visible light emitter recedes away from us at a significant speed.
That causes the apparent frequency of the light to decrease, changing its hue toward red.

When looking at emission lines from known sources such as sodium lines, the exact frequency is quite stable and very accurately known, so it's easy to determine its red shift.

The problem with red shift is easy to describe and very difficult to explain.

When observing distant stellar emitters, the measured red shift seems to be the same regardless of which direction we look. The only way that can happen within our understanding of physics is if we are at the center of the sphere of expansion.

- Leigh
Not so. The background radiation has the same red shift in any frame of reference anywhere in the universe. Hop in your Warp driven starship, travel a few billion light years, in any direction, and you'll observe the same thing. Everywhere is the 'center', which means nothing is.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Alien Bacteria Found On ISS Exterior
PostPosted: Dec Tue 05, 2017 5:10 am 
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pixellany wrote:
Further, I do not believe that the Earth is the center of the universe.

WHAAATT??? You mean IT'S NOT?? I suppose next you'll be postulating that it's not flat, either... :shock:

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