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 Post subject: Re: Possible Alien Bacteria Found On ISS Exterior
PostPosted: Dec Tue 05, 2017 5:20 am 
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Leigh wrote:
If the universe is expanding uniformly in all directions, then ...
the point of observation MUST be the center.

No other geometry is possible within our sphere of knowledge.

- Leigh


The observer sees himself as the center. Every intelligent life form in the universe also sees the point of observation as the center. Everything is moving away from the observer, no matter where he is in the universe.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Alien Bacteria Found On ISS Exterior
PostPosted: Dec Tue 05, 2017 5:39 am 
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I think we are talking about volume expansion. If a material expands by the same percentage in all 3 dimensions, then an observer at any point sees the same thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Alien Bacteria Found On ISS Exterior
PostPosted: Dec Tue 05, 2017 6:58 am 
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Ted wrote:
"Theory" in scientific terms isn't quite how a lot of people suppose. Evolution has been proven, it's not up for debate, but there are still mechanisms that aren't understood, or gaps in the fossil record, &c. Thus the "Theory of Evolution." See the difference?...
Everything is 'up for debate'. It's just that well established theories take a lot of convincing to overcome the evidence in support of them.

If things worked the way you described we'd still be using Newtonian physics.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Alien Bacteria Found On ISS Exterior
PostPosted: Dec Tue 05, 2017 8:27 am 
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Flipperhome wrote:
Leigh wrote:
Flipperhome wrote:
As for red shift...

Red shift results when a visible light emitter recedes away from us at a significant speed.
That causes the apparent frequency of the light to decrease, changing its hue toward red.

When looking at emission lines from known sources such as sodium lines, the exact frequency is quite stable and very accurately known, so it's easy to determine its red shift.

The problem with red shift is easy to describe and very difficult to explain.

When observing distant stellar emitters, the measured red shift seems to be the same regardless of which direction we look. The only way that can happen within our understanding of physics is if we are at the center of the sphere of expansion.

- Leigh
Not so. The background radiation...
I'm not talking about the background radiation.
That would be obvious to anyone who read my post.

I'm talking about ranging individual stars
That's done by measuring their red shift and converting it to distance.

- Leigh

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Alien Bacteria Found On ISS Exterior
PostPosted: Dec Tue 05, 2017 8:30 am 
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Flipperhome wrote:
... well established theories take a lot of convincing to overcome the evidence in support of them.
Not actually true.

There's a very famous saying: "Science progresses one funeral at a time."

When a prominent academic espouses a particular interpretation, nobody can challenge it.
Whether or not the opinion / interpretation is valid has little to do with it being accepted.

- Leigh

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Alien Bacteria Found On ISS Exterior
PostPosted: Dec Tue 05, 2017 2:14 pm 
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Flipperhome wrote:
Everything is 'up for debate'. It's just that well established theories take a lot of convincing to overcome the evidence in support of them.


It's early, and I'm finding it difficult to parse that sentence.

Evolution itself is not a theory, and is not up for debate, at least among scientists. The knowledge is incomplete, that's where theory comes in. That's the point I was trying to make, scientific jargon doesn't always translate to the Great Unwashed very well. "Theory of Evolution" sort of implies that the whole concept by itself is a little sketchy, and that's not the case. See where I'm goin' with that?


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Alien Bacteria Found On ISS Exterior
PostPosted: Dec Tue 05, 2017 2:28 pm 
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<<edit...I was responding to Leigh...the system did not warn me of the latest post>>


.???????
People challenge established theories and interpretations all the time.....and occasionally with at least some rationale. The reaction of the establishment depends mostly on just how well established something is. Try to argue that you have new data refuting Newton, Coulomb, Ohm, and others and, yes, you will be facing some headwinds.

I dealt with a lot of CalTech PhDs over the years. All good people and on top of all the developments in their field. To be sure, if someone starts spouting something without solid evidence, the punishment can be spectacular.

It certainly is true that, if you are really out in left field, you can get very loudly ignored.

Red shift gives you only the relative velocity.....distance is inferred from the model in use. (Am I correct that the current model argues the expansion is accelerating?)

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Alien Bacteria Found On ISS Exterior
PostPosted: Dec Tue 05, 2017 5:03 pm 
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A scientific theory is a lot more than just a guess, and I think that's where people sometimes get confused. It's easy to say "it's just a theory", which really obscures what "theory" really means in a scientific sense. A good theory provides a framework to describe a number of related observable phenomena, and is also used to predict outcomes of future experiments that will explore yet unobserved phenomena. No theory is perfect; nearly every theory will fail to explain the outcome of some future experiment. That's not the fault of the person writing the theory; Newton, for example, had no way to even comprehend the subatomic realm, and our knowledge of extraterrestrial space was still in its infancy. A good theoretical framework allows for confounding results, after which it may be amended.

Flipperhome wrote:
Ted wrote:
"Theory" in scientific terms isn't quite how a lot of people suppose. Evolution has been proven, it's not up for debate, but there are still mechanisms that aren't understood, or gaps in the fossil record, &c. Thus the "Theory of Evolution." See the difference?

None of this, btw, should alarm religious folks, science and religion has a long intertwined history, many, many scientific discoveries were made by people of great faith. In the West, the Church probably provided a lot of the funding. Applied science without ethics always ends quite badly.
You're quite right. The reason it does alarm some religious folks is some science zealots have tried to use 'science' to 'disprove' religious beliefs.

Perhaps the most egregious example, familiar to most in the sciences, is the mischaracterization of the Galileo prosecution as a "battle between Science and Religion." It was no such thing. The Church was actually quite amenable to "the earth moves." Galileo was prosecuted for promulgating unproven science as "fact." No where did this supposed 'battle' between religion and science appear until a couple of hundred years later.


That's not quite accurate either. Galileo was in a position to make scientific observations that challenged the orthodoxy of the time; what he was promulgating was hardly "unproven science". I do agree, however, that Galileo's problems were based more in the local politics of the time than in religion.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Alien Bacteria Found On ISS Exterior
PostPosted: Dec Tue 05, 2017 5:10 pm 
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I think that the so-called alien bacteria (hereafter called a bug) has followed the electron stream down to the ARF Clubhouse and has caused many posters to go bonkers and start debating about red shift, space / time coordinates, gravitational pull, theory of evolution and probably coming up how Astronaut's relieve themselves when outside the space capsule.
WOW! this is really a very interesting thread on topic shift, probably a derivative of Red Shift. I love it!!
:-)
Mark D.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Alien Bacteria Found On ISS Exterior
PostPosted: Dec Tue 05, 2017 7:46 pm 
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Ted wrote:
"Theory" in scientific terms isn't quite how a lot of people suppose. Evolution has been proven, it's not up for debate, but there are still mechanisms that aren't understood, or gaps in the fossil record, &c. Thus the "Theory of Evolution." See the difference?


I'm no sure how evolution can be "proven" with gaps in the fossil record, and we're not talking little gaps, we're talking whole generations and species are missing. The beginning of evolution and many points in between aren't even there! I doubt humans evolved from tadpoles.
Again, somebody filled (made up) in the blanks long ago and science clings to it for lack of admitting alternate truths, Alien seeding of life here.
Most of our modern theories are hundreds of years old. Religion and Rulers dictated most of it. Maybe religion and government don't want you to
know the truth, so they feed these ridiculous ideas of evolution to us and pay or threaten scientist to "toe the line"
Museums are discovering their renditions of dinosaurs was also flawed, instead of reptile skin, many are believed to have had feathers, big difference, but both are guesses since no one ever saw one alive and took a picture.

time to move on to alternate theories. I'm only saying that relying on ancient thoughts may not be accurate today.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Alien Bacteria Found On ISS Exterior
PostPosted: Dec Tue 05, 2017 8:15 pm 
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The fact that we cannot account for every step in the chain does not invalidate the basic theory of natural selection. I think the evidence supporting the theory vastly outweighs the evidence against.
I imagine that one thing that makes understanding difficult is the amount of time involved. The transition to Homo Sapiens from the immediate predecessor did not happen in a few generations. I seem to remember at least a million years (go look it up I will....
Edit: Wikipedia says 200-300 kiloyears

Keep in mind that the majority of people rejecting various theories do so because they don't understand them or just don't like them......not because they think they can disprove them.

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Alien Bacteria Found On ISS Exterior
PostPosted: Dec Tue 05, 2017 8:43 pm 
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pixellany wrote:
Keep in mind that the majority of people rejecting various theories do so because they don't understand them or just don't like them......not because they think they can disprove them.
Ain't that the truth. ^ ^ ^

Just like all those folks who think the Earth is round !!!
Feel sorry for them.

- Leigh

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Alien Bacteria Found On ISS Exterior
PostPosted: Dec Wed 06, 2017 1:48 am 
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Alien bacteria? Why not?

http://www.bbc.com/news/av/science-envi ... ardigrades

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tardigrade

Tardigrades can survive for decades without any sustenance. Am I to think that there is nothing else that can 'survive'? Who knows what is in comets and released in the melting trails left behind? After all, our planet is always going through paths other objects have already passed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m ... uter_space

John S.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Alien Bacteria Found On ISS Exterior
PostPosted: Dec Wed 06, 2017 2:20 am 
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Leigh wrote:
Flipperhome wrote:
Not so. The background radiation...
I'm not talking about the background radiation.
That would be obvious to anyone who read my post.

I'm talking about ranging individual stars
That's done by measuring their red shift and converting it to distance.

- Leigh
It really doesn't matter. According to our current understanding there is no 'center' to the universe.

Btw, red shift is a measure of velocity, not distance.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Alien Bacteria Found On ISS Exterior
PostPosted: Dec Wed 06, 2017 2:23 am 
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Flipperhome wrote:
Btw, red shift is a measure of velocity, not distance.

If you'd read my earlier post on the subject, that would have been obvious.

But the current theory is that the universe is expanding, meaning that distant stars are moving faster than closer stars. That factor can be used to determine the distance.

- Leigh

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 Post subject: Re: Possible Alien Bacteria Found On ISS Exterior
PostPosted: Dec Wed 06, 2017 2:24 am 
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Leigh wrote:
Flipperhome wrote:
... well established theories take a lot of convincing to overcome the evidence in support of them.
Not actually true.

There's a very famous saying: "Science progresses one funeral at a time."

When a prominent academic espouses a particular interpretation, nobody can challenge it.
Whether or not the opinion / interpretation is valid has little to do with it being accepted.

- Leigh
Pardon me for saying so but your 'theory' that when an "academic espouses a particular interpretation" it can't be challenged is simply hogwash.

Now, you better know what you're talking about because he's likely to.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Alien Bacteria Found On ISS Exterior
PostPosted: Dec Wed 06, 2017 2:35 am 
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Leigh wrote:
Flipperhome wrote:
Btw, red shift is a measure of velocity, not distance.

If you'd read my earlier post on the subject, that would have been obvious.

But the current theory is that the universe is expanding, meaning that distant stars are moving faster than closer stars. That factor can be used to determine the distance.

- Leigh
I think you'll find that to be a circular determination. I.e. how do you know the stars are 'distant'. By their red shift. How do you known they're moving faster? By their red shift. It's not possible to determine both things by red shift.

Distance is measured by the relative brightness of objects with known emissivity.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Alien Bacteria Found On ISS Exterior
PostPosted: Dec Wed 06, 2017 2:42 am 
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Ted wrote:
Flipperhome wrote:
Everything is 'up for debate'. It's just that well established theories take a lot of convincing to overcome the evidence in support of them.
It's early, and I'm finding it difficult to parse that sentence.

Evolution itself is not a theory, and is not up for debate, at least among scientists. The knowledge is incomplete, that's where theory comes in. That's the point I was trying to make, scientific jargon doesn't always translate to the Great Unwashed very well. "Theory of Evolution" sort of implies that the whole concept by itself is a little sketchy, and that's not the case. See where I'm goin' with that?
No more 'sketchy' than any other currently accepted theory.

Methinks you have a religious attachment to the Theory of Evolution for some reason. So much so that you've now claimed it's not even a theory.


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Alien Bacteria Found On ISS Exterior
PostPosted: Dec Wed 06, 2017 3:27 am 
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lexrageorge wrote:
Flipperhome wrote:
You're quite right. The reason it does alarm some religious folks is some science zealots have tried to use 'science' to 'disprove' religious beliefs.

Perhaps the most egregious example, familiar to most in the sciences, is the mischaracterization of the Galileo prosecution as a "battle between Science and Religion." It was no such thing. The Church was actually quite amenable to "the earth moves." Galileo was prosecuted for promulgating unproven science as "fact." No where did this supposed 'battle' between religion and science appear until a couple of hundred years later.
That's not quite accurate either. Galileo was in a position to make scientific observations that challenged the orthodoxy of the time; what he was promulgating was hardly "unproven science". I do agree, however, that Galileo's problems were based more in the local politics of the time than in religion.
Pardon me but I didn't argue whether he did good science or not. All I said was he was prosecuted for teaching that the theory was 'fact'.

When I say "unproven science" I mean tested and verified by experimentation/observation as well as generally accepted. Like Quantum Wave theory currently is (not). It may turn out to be correct but there'd be quite a hubbub if proponents prematurely claimed it was "fact."


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 Post subject: Re: Possible Alien Bacteria Found On ISS Exterior
PostPosted: Dec Wed 06, 2017 3:56 am 
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Flipperhome wrote:
lexrageorge wrote:
Flipperhome wrote:
You're quite right. The reason it does alarm some religious folks is some science zealots have tried to use 'science' to 'disprove' religious beliefs.

Perhaps the most egregious example, familiar to most in the sciences, is the mischaracterization of the Galileo prosecution as a "battle between Science and Religion." It was no such thing. The Church was actually quite amenable to "the earth moves." Galileo was prosecuted for promulgating unproven science as "fact." No where did this supposed 'battle' between religion and science appear until a couple of hundred years later.
That's not quite accurate either. Galileo was in a position to make scientific observations that challenged the orthodoxy of the time; what he was promulgating was hardly "unproven science". I do agree, however, that Galileo's problems were based more in the local politics of the time than in religion.
Pardon me but I didn't argue whether he did good science or not. All I said was he was prosecuted for teaching that the theory was 'fact'.

When I say "unproven science" I mean tested and verified by experimentation/observation as well as generally accepted. Like Quantum Wave theory currently is (not). It may turn out to be correct but there'd be quite a hubbub if proponents prematurely claimed it was "fact."

The order from the Pope read:

Quote:
To abandon completely...the opinion that the sun still stands at the center of the world and that the earth moves, and henceforth not to hold, teach, or defend it in any way whatever, in orally or in writing...


He was prosecuted for political reasons more so than violating the above order, an order which was also issued for political reasons. Had very little to do with the manner in which Galileo was using the word "fact".

If someone said Quantum Wave theory was a "fact", they would not be put under house arrest for the remainder of their life.


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