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 Post subject: Alternative Theory of Gravity
PostPosted: Dec Mon 04, 2017 5:43 pm 
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An alternative theory of gravity popped into my head the other day. I'm no physicist and maybe it's out there already, but here's what I was thinking.

It's that gravity is simply a manifestation of inertia and momentum. And our perception of gravity is just an illusion that comes with the acceleration of the expanding universe. Follow this thought experiment:

You know how you feel a force on your body when standing in an ascending elevator? We perceive that force as the interaction of momentum and inertia. At constant speed, we feel no force. We only feel it while it's accelerating.

Now in weightless space, standing an elevator that's accelerating at 9.8 M/S2 in the direction of your head would feel exactly like earth gravity. So how could you continue the production of such gravity? Simply by standing on a surface that is constantly accelerating at a uniform rate of 9.8 M/S2.

So think of what it would feel like in weightless space, if you were standing on a huge balloon that was expanding at that rate. Instead of the elevator on earth where you feel extra weight, in this situation, you would feel only normal gravity.

Think of the oft-described model of a balloon covered with dots. As the balloon expands, the dots move further away from each other. So if you were standing on an expanding balloon, you would also perceive your floor to be moving apart from itself, UNLESS.... your feet and you were expanding at the same rate.

Now if the universe is expanding such that all the particles are expanding, including all the way down to subatomic particles, then everything is getting bigger and bigger. But we don't perceive it because the expansion is at the same rate for everything. And if that expansion happens to be accelerating at 9.8 M/S, then if you are standing on something, you'd feel yourself pushing against it. That's gravity.

Here's the illusion: When you drop a ball bearing, it doesn't actually fall. It stays there where you were holding it and the earth is expanding up to meet it. And the ball bearing is expanding too, so the bottom side is moving toward the floor also at 9.8 M/S. Because the ball bearing is practically infinitely smaller than the earth, the expansion of the ball bearing toward earth is imperceptible. So the ball bearing sees the earth rushing up to meet it. For whatever reason, our brains choose to see the ball bearing moving toward the earth.

In this model, I don't see how there could be such thing as antigravity. There would have to be a mechanism to reverse expansion.

This is fun to think about, like the Dark Sucker Theory. (http://www.ultimatecampresource.com/sit ... heory.html). But what if there's actually something to it? Now, if only I could have a similar epiphany that would explain magnetism.


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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Theory of Gravity
PostPosted: Dec Mon 04, 2017 8:43 pm 
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My head still hurts from the ISS bacteria thread, now this...... :shock:

9.8m/s^2 is only observed on Earth. Go anywhere else in the universe and that number is different. That number is not a constant and cant be used to explain the rate at which the universe is expanding.

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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Theory of Gravity
PostPosted: Dec Mon 04, 2017 9:07 pm 
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Macrohenry wrote:
So how could you continue the production of such gravity? Simply by standing on a surface that is constantly accelerating at a uniform rate of 9.8 M/S2.


Interesting theory, but I don't like the earth expanding towards the ball bearing bit.

Here's something to think about. Supposed you're in the elevator in space that is constantly accelerating at a uniform rate of 9.8 M/S2. Now suppose that nothing else exists in the universe except the elevator. Is it still accelerating? Compared to what? (or relative to what?)

And would there be bacteria on the outside of it? :lol: :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Theory of Gravity
PostPosted: Dec Mon 04, 2017 9:21 pm 
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Here's what puzzles me! Say the sun was to go out like a light bulb burns out. The light and radiant energy will continue to travel through space and reach earth a few minutes later before it goes out. But the gravity will disappear instantly and all the planets will fly off into space. How does gravity work is the big question! Now don't quote me on this but I read it in some scientific publication some years back!


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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Theory of Gravity
PostPosted: Dec Mon 04, 2017 9:22 pm 
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flyboy71 wrote:
My head still hurts from the ISS bacteria thread, now this...... :shock:
.

+1---but we like these digressions---right?...;)

I teach math and physics part-time, but I still have trouble visualizing exactly what is happening with forces like gravity, the Coulomb force, etc.

At some level, it's better to accept gravity as a fundamental property of nature, and then deal with the various derivatives----eg the fact that an object in free-fall accelerates according to the gravitational pull of the Earth. To solve just about any problem involving gravity, we also deal with Newton's 3 laws.

Quote:
It's that gravity is simply a manifestation of inertia and momentum. And our perception of gravity is just an illusion that comes with the acceleration of the expanding universe.

first, inertia and momentum are properties of anything that has mass. The force of gravity is also related to mass. So, mass is the only thing that "connects" gravity to those other properties.

The relationship between force and acceleration is not an illusion---it is one of Newton's laws.

and a nitpick.......a force---or a perception of a force--is not due to acceleration. It's the opposite: A force is required to create an acceleration.....IOW acceleration is due to force.

While there's room for speculation about the exact nature of gravity, I don't think that F = G*m1*m2 / r^2 has ever come into serious question. And it's got to be 100s of years since anyone tried to overturn Newton.....

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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Theory of Gravity
PostPosted: Dec Mon 04, 2017 9:24 pm 
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SteveT wrote:
Here's what puzzles me! Say the sun was to go out like a light bulb burns out. The light and radiant energy will continue to travel through space and reach earth a few minutes later before it goes out. But the gravity will disappear instantly and all the planets will fly off into space. How does gravity work is the big question! Now don't quote me on this but I read it in some scientific publication some years back!

The sun will in fact "go out" at some point in the future, but the mass will still be there---therefor, the gravitational force will be the same.

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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Theory of Gravity
PostPosted: Dec Mon 04, 2017 9:27 pm 
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SkyKing wrote:
Macrohenry wrote:
So how could you continue the production of such gravity? Simply by standing on a surface that is constantly accelerating at a uniform rate of 9.8 M/S2.


Interesting theory, but I don't like the earth expanding towards the ball bearing bit.

Here's something to think about. Supposed you're in the elevator in space that is constantly accelerating at a uniform rate of 9.8 M/S2. Now suppose that nothing else exists in the universe except the elevator. Is it still accelerating? Compared to what? (or relative to what?)

And would there be bacteria on the outside of it? :lol: :lol:

can't have acceleration withOUT a force (F=m*a)
in free space, can't have force without mass and therefore gravity.

<<edit--fixed boo-boo>>

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Last edited by pixellany on Dec Mon 04, 2017 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Theory of Gravity
PostPosted: Dec Mon 04, 2017 9:54 pm 
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pixellany wrote:
can't have acceleration with a force (F=m*a) in free space.


Why not? Wouldn't it work till you neared the speed of light?

OK, what if you were in a rotating space station that created its own "gravity" like in the movie 2001 A Space Odyssey?

Now suddenly nothing else exists in the universe but the space station. Is it still rotating? My thought is that yes, it is rotating through space/time, though you have nothing to compare it to. You would then have to come up with a new (and probably wrong) theory of how gravity works.


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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Theory of Gravity
PostPosted: Dec Mon 04, 2017 10:15 pm 
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If you dig a hole and jump in you still fall, so if you could dig a theoretical hole to the center of the Earth at what point would you stop falling?

They dropped a probe into Jupiter a few years back and it succumbed to the heat and since its assumed the planet is all gas the same could be asked whether the probe remnants stopped at some point and are floating around at zero gravity.

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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Theory of Gravity
PostPosted: Dec Mon 04, 2017 10:33 pm 
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SkyKing wrote:
pixellany wrote:
can't have acceleration with a force (F=m*a) in free space.


Why not? Wouldn't it work till you neared the speed of light?

OK, what if you were in a rotating space station that created its own "gravity" like in the movie 2001 A Space Odyssey?

Now suddenly nothing else exists in the universe but the space station. Is it still rotating? My thought is that yes, it is rotating through space/time, though you have nothing to compare it to. You would then have to come up with a new (and probably wrong) theory of how gravity works.

AWK!!!---error: you cannot have acceleration withOUT a force---Issac sez...

There is gravity on the ISS because it has mass. But the "virtual gravity" generated by the rotation is centripetal force.

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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Theory of Gravity
PostPosted: Dec Mon 04, 2017 10:42 pm 
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A friend of mine here in town has been working on this very theory for years and has published several papers on the topic.

His arguments are persuasive and very well articulated, but in some instances take a bit of "suspension of everything you've ever been taught" to really wrap your head around. You will find reasonable answers to all the questions asked here, including, and in particularly, the object dropped into a hole drilled all the way through the earth (or any other planet, ftm.)

Have a look at his web site:

http://www.gravitationlab.com

- Scott


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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Theory of Gravity
PostPosted: Dec Tue 05, 2017 12:20 am 
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SkyKing wrote:
Here's something to think about. Supposed you're in the elevator in space that is constantly accelerating at a uniform rate of 9.8 M/S2. Now suppose that nothing else exists in the universe except the elevator. Is it still accelerating? Compared to what? (or relative to what?)

Imagine you are in space so you're practically beyond any gravity. You're in the elevator just floating around, bumping into walls, and such, then suddenly the elevator fires its thrusters located under the floor. Relative to the elevator you would "fall" to the floor and stay there. Then you would feel a constant and uniform force against the floor as long as acceleration was constant. It would then feel like gravity.

Not like gravity, you would feel nothing during the initial falling. But after you have contacted the floor and its motion has been conferred onto you, then when you jump up you will feel the pull back of the motion that had just been imparted onto you. You'll feel it until the energy of your jump has dissipated. As it dissipates, you begin to feel the loss of your jump momentum, which feels like falling. As you feel the falling, voila, the elevator is catching up to you. So for all practical purposes you are falling. Your eye/body coordination memory further enhances the sense of falling. Fun stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Theory of Gravity
PostPosted: Dec Tue 05, 2017 12:49 am 
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pixellany wrote:
SkyKing wrote:
pixellany wrote:
can't have acceleration with a force (F=m*a) in free space.


Why not? Wouldn't it work till you neared the speed of light?

OK, what if you were in a rotating space station that created its own "gravity" like in the movie 2001 A Space Odyssey?

Now suddenly nothing else exists in the universe but the space station. Is it still rotating? My thought is that yes, it is rotating through space/time, though you have nothing to compare it to. You would then have to come up with a new (and probably wrong) theory of how gravity works.

AWK!!!---error: you cannot have acceleration withOUT a force---Issac sez...

There is gravity on the ISS because it has mass. But the "virtual gravity" generated by the rotation is centripetal force.


The space station is ALREADY rotating when everything vanishes in the universe except the space station. It will continue to rotate until some force stops it. The question is, if there is no relative object to observe, how would you know if it rotating or not? Would there be centripetal force still present? If you tried to go outside, would you be flung off at a tangent? You wouldn't know you were being flung, you would think another force is pulling you away as you saw the space station recede.

As for the elevator, since this is all imaginary, it has a limitless supply of fuel to keep it accelerating, and will do so till it approaches the speed of light.


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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Theory of Gravity
PostPosted: Dec Tue 05, 2017 12:54 am 
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Macrohenry wrote:
... then suddenly the elevator fires its thrusters located under the floor. Relative to the elevator you would "fall" to the floor and stay there.


Rocket engines that can restart in space do exactly this. It is called a ullage burn. The thrusters are fired, giving the spacecraft some new forward momentum. The rocket fuel, which had been sloshing around in the tanks in globs now "falls" to the bottom of the tanks. (Actually, the bottom of the fuel tanks crash into the fuel.) Now the engine can be fired.


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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Theory of Gravity
PostPosted: Dec Tue 05, 2017 12:57 am 
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Macrohenry wrote:
An alternative theory of gravity popped into my head the other day. I'm no physicist and maybe it's out there already, but here's what I was thinking.

It's that gravity is simply a manifestation of inertia and momentum. And our perception of gravity is just an illusion that comes with the acceleration of the expanding universe. Follow this thought experiment:

You know how you feel a force on your body when standing in an ascending elevator? We perceive that force as the interaction of momentum and inertia. At constant speed, we feel no force. We only feel it while it's accelerating.

Now in weightless space, standing an elevator that's accelerating at 9.8 M/S2 in the direction of your head would feel exactly like earth gravity. So how could you continue the production of such gravity? Simply by standing on a surface that is constantly accelerating at a uniform rate of 9.8 M/S2....
With the exception of the 'expanding balloon' bit you've partially recreated the difference between the Newtonian concept of gravity and the subsequent Einsteinian concept in General and Special Relativity.

In the Newtonian concept gravity is a 'real' force. In the Einsteinian concept there's no distinguishing between so called 'gravity' and what one feels from acceleration. They're the same thing. 'Gravity', as a separate force, is an illusion.

From the Newtonian perspective that seemingly creates a problem with inertial frames, though. Inertial frames should travel in a straight line, unless acted on by a force, and they seem not to for things like an object in orbit. That's where Einstien's curvature of space-time comes in. If one takes into account the curvature of space-time due to mass then the orbit IS a straight line.

Here's another 'derived', rather than intrinsic, property to confound you. Mass is an illusion too. It's the result of confined motion (a the sub-atomic particle scale) of massless particles by the Higgs field. So 'mass', itself, is a result of confined motion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSKzgpt4HBU&t=519s


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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Theory of Gravity
PostPosted: Dec Tue 05, 2017 1:08 am 
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My alternate theory of gravity is that it grows stronger in the afternoon. Ask anyone, they all agree they experience the same thing!
-Ed


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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Theory of Gravity
PostPosted: Dec Tue 05, 2017 1:55 am 
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"An alternative theory of gravity popped into my head the other day. I'm no physicist ..."

This is apparent.

"It's that gravity is simply a manifestation of inertia and momentum. "

Nope. It isn't. Don't quit your day job.


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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Theory of Gravity
PostPosted: Dec Tue 05, 2017 2:07 am 
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I would opine that gravity here on Earth is caused by a super heated core that remains positively charged, and anything beyond the core is negatively charged. Of course, the attraction would be directly proportional to the distance from the core. Obviously, it would follow then that the closer one is to the core, the more that person would actually weigh, and vice versa. On a side note, this is why it would be impossible to build any anti-gravity device. This phenomenon would be true for all celestial objects with sufficient mass.


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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Theory of Gravity
PostPosted: Dec Tue 05, 2017 2:28 am 
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jim rozen wrote:
"An alternative theory of gravity popped into my head the other day. I'm no physicist ..."

This is apparent.

"It's that gravity is simply a manifestation of inertia and momentum. "

Nope. It isn't. Don't quit your day job.

At least I have something interesting and positive to contribute.


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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Theory of Gravity
PostPosted: Dec Tue 05, 2017 2:31 am 
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Blustar1 wrote:
I would opine that gravity here on Earth is caused by a super heated core that remains positively charged, and anything beyond the core is negatively charged. Of course, the attraction would be directly proportional to the distance from the core. Obviously, it would follow then that the closer one is to the core, the more that person would actually weigh, and vice versa. On a side note, this is why it would be impossible to build any anti-gravity device. This phenomenon would be true for all celestial objects with sufficient mass.

What????

Gravity is a function of mass and distance......not temperature, and not charge. And the force is inversely proportional to the square of the distance.

The formula: F = G*m1*m2 / r^2
G is the gravitational constant
F is in Newtons, m is kg, and r is in meters

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