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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Theory of Gravity
PostPosted: Dec Tue 05, 2017 2:42 am 
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I see the equation, but it just doesn't explain why a mass causes gravity. In fact, all that the equation tells is the amount of force that gravity exerts, but it solves nothing as to what actually causes the effect.


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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Theory of Gravity
PostPosted: Dec Tue 05, 2017 2:52 am 
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Blustar1 wrote:
I see the equation, but it just doesn't explain why a mass causes gravity.

For that, you'll need to do a LOT of reading---quite simply because noone knows the whole story

I would start here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity

If you don't get a headache by the 3rd or 4th page, you get a prize.....;)

The short answer? Relativity

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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Theory of Gravity
PostPosted: Dec Tue 05, 2017 2:54 am 
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Blustar1 wrote:
I see the equation, but it just doesn't explain why a mass causes gravity. In fact, all that the equation tells is the amount of force that gravity exerts, but it solves nothing as to what actually causes the effect.
Mass causes gravity by bending spacetime.


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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Theory of Gravity
PostPosted: Dec Tue 05, 2017 2:56 am 
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Okay, I'll go along with that. Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Theory of Gravity
PostPosted: Dec Tue 05, 2017 3:01 am 
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Flipperhome wrote:
Mass causes gravity by bending spacetime.


By bending Spacetime, of course, simple really... :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Theory of Gravity
PostPosted: Dec Tue 05, 2017 3:23 am 
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Flipperhome wrote:
Blustar1 wrote:
I see the equation, but it just doesn't explain why a mass causes gravity. In fact, all that the equation tells is the amount of force that gravity exerts, but it solves nothing as to what actually causes the effect.
Mass causes gravity by bending spacetime.


The Higgs-Boson "drags" through spacetime, creating mass and warping spacetime around it, creating gravity.

The real question is, what is spacetime? It is the "fabric" of the universe, created in the Big Bang. Back to the "bacteria on the ISS" thread, it is spacetime that is expanding when we think of the universe expanding. That's why there is no "outside" of the universe and the universe doesn't expand into anything. Outside the universe is non-universe, something we can't conceive of.
(Unless you want to go into branes and multiverses)


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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Theory of Gravity
PostPosted: Dec Tue 05, 2017 3:40 am 
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What about "Dark Matter" ... no one has mentioned dark matter. Even the inhabitants of Asgard knew this! ~

Seriously though, it's magic. The planets are held in their orbits by magic .... the firm belief by the astronomers that they should be where they are, keeps them where they are. (yes, Heinlein, I forget which short story. Waldo I think.) :-D

I think we should actually discuss Dark Matter next. Then compare all these threads and see which leads to the bigger, and more numerous, headaches


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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Theory of Gravity
PostPosted: Dec Tue 05, 2017 4:03 am 
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OK. I believe "Dark Matter" is just ordinary matter that does not give off light. For every star, there are a million failed stars. The failed stars even have solar systems, we just can't see them. I don't think there is anything mysterious about it.


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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Theory of Gravity
PostPosted: Dec Tue 05, 2017 4:11 am 
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OK, let's see if I can increase the HQ (Headache Quotient).

I've heard it stated that if mass creates gravity and one of the theories surrounding quantum physics is small particles can appear out of a vacuum (ie., a location where no matter was before), then as/during/after the particle appears, it creates a VERY small amount of gravity, unless it's massless. Other objects nearby "feel" the gravity at that instant and not some small time later. Thus, gravity IS faster than the speed of light.

Or another brain squeezer. Where does all of the mass sucked into the singularity of a black hole go? Does it appear in in some other universe as a white peak?

I think it's aspirin time ...

John

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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Theory of Gravity
PostPosted: Dec Tue 05, 2017 7:18 pm 
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I don't believe there is a singularity at the center of a black hole. It's a massive body whose escape velocity is greater than 186,200 miles per second, therefore not even light can escape. I think it could be an object the size of our sun, or maybe even the size of our solar system. A giant neutron star, perhaps. When mass gets "sucked" into the black hole it just winds up on the surface, the way a meteor winds up on the Earth's surface.


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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Theory of Gravity
PostPosted: Dec Tue 05, 2017 7:22 pm 
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SkyKing wrote:
I don't believe there is a singularity at the center of a black hole. It's a massive body whose escape velocity is greater than 186,200 miles per second, therefore not even light can escape. I think it could be an object the size of our sun, or maybe even the size of our solar system. A giant neutron star, perhaps. When mass gets "sucked" into the black hole it just winds up on the surface, the way a meteor winds up on the Earth's surface.
That isn't what the math says.


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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Theory of Gravity
PostPosted: Dec Tue 05, 2017 8:51 pm 
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Time for the Twilight Zone (cue music).

Gravity has the appearance of a force but is actually a distortion of space-time that appears to be in proportion to the masses that are present. As a result it can be put into an equation that quantifies that apparent force in relation to the masses involved.

Also since, in this universe, any force can be expressed in terms of a mass and acceleration, we can also look at gravity as if it is just due to acceleration (F=mA).

Despite all of this, neither of these make gravity simply an acceleration, nor does it make gravity a force. It is still a distortion of space-time which is proportional to the masses involved.

Have you ever seen one of those funnels that you can toss a coin into and it spirals around and around the funnel and eventually closes in toward the center until if finally falls through the center hole. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6itJ1GkTqI

That funnel is a physical analogy to the warp of space time by a large mass at its center. The coin could actually orbit continually except that there is drag which causes it to slow. As it slows the warp of the funnel causes it to spiral in closer and closer until it reaches the center. The same thing happens with satellites. Drag causes them to slowly spiral in toward earth over time. This is also why the ISS has to have its orbit boosted back up from time to time.

Also, for the record, if the sun instantaneously disappeared. Not only would we still see it for 8.3 minutes, but our orbit would even continue to be exactly where it is for 8.3 minutes until space-time unwarpage propagated out to us.
Attachment:
Space-Time.jpg
Space-Time.jpg [ 175.37 KiB | Viewed 166 times ]
Consider this. If there are parallel universes, could parallel universes to ours cause space-time distortions in our universe that we perceive as Dark Matter and Dark Energy? That is, parallel universes interact with each other in a way that prevents them from being completely FLAT in our analogy. Dips are seen as Dark Matter and Humps are seen as Dark Energy.

Now back to our regularly scheduled program in progress...

Curtis Eickerman

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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Theory of Gravity
PostPosted: Dec Tue 05, 2017 10:47 pm 
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Quote:
That isn't what the math says.


I know. However, I see no reason why a super massive object would shrink to a singularity. The mass would still be there and it can only shrink so much. Let's say the gravity is so great that the quarks in the atomic particles are smashed together is some weird quark soup (like a neutron star, only much worse). Why would it turn into a singularity?


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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Theory of Gravity
PostPosted: Dec Tue 05, 2017 11:32 pm 
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None of us can relate to masses as large as what purportedly happens when something like a star collapses. Keep in mind that we are not talking about volume. What gives a material volume us the molecular forces that maintain th distance between atoms. When the gravitational force overcomes that, is is, as they say, a whole new ball game

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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Theory of Gravity
PostPosted: Dec Wed 06, 2017 1:30 am 
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Perhaps some of what we know about gravity could be explained by trying to understand why 186,000MPS is a constant in our reality. Electromagnetic waves are confined to this speed. What has set that barrier? Is our reality simply a by product of "something" being slowed down to Csquared ? Is our dimension simply a slice from a spectrum of other dimensions, and gravity is a result of interference between them? What a rabbit hole.


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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Theory of Gravity
PostPosted: Dec Wed 06, 2017 1:50 am 
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SkyKing wrote:
OK. I believe "Dark Matter" is just ordinary matter that does not give off light. For every star, there are a million failed stars. The failed stars even have solar systems, we just can't see them. I don't think there is anything mysterious about it.
We're better at 'seeing' (whether emitting light or not) the known mass of the universe than you seem to think and it doesn't add up. And it's not just a little off, more like 80% off.

See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3rgl-_a5C0

That's a fantastic series, btw.


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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Theory of Gravity
PostPosted: Dec Wed 06, 2017 1:52 am 
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Gravity does not hold you on earth, air pressure does. If you go high enough, out of the air, you will continue to float into space.

No, I don't believe this, just an alternate theory of gravity

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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Theory of Gravity
PostPosted: Dec Wed 06, 2017 2:01 am 
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The basic thing is that all mass has gravity. It is a property of mass to have gravity. You can imitate gravity by acceleration: F= m × a. That imitation works fairly well until the speed of light is reached when all goes crazy. The true alternative is anti-gravity.

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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Theory of Gravity
PostPosted: Dec Wed 06, 2017 2:10 am 
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SkyKing wrote:
Quote:
That isn't what the math says.
I know. However, I see no reason why a super massive object would shrink to a singularity. The mass would still be there and it can only shrink so much. Let's say the gravity is so great that the quarks in the atomic particles are smashed together is some weird quark soup (like a neutron star, only much worse). Why would it turn into a singularity?
You're thinking in 'normal' (if there is such a thing) spacetime but, according to general relativity, past the event horizon of a black hole even the roles of space and time reverse, which is beyond my conceptual ability to visualize. But since it is also theorized that 'mass' is simply a manifestation of spacetime energy fields (massless particles confined by the Higgs Field), and not a fundamental property, who knows what 'it' is or does inside a black hole?


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 Post subject: Re: Alternative Theory of Gravity
PostPosted: Dec Wed 06, 2017 4:10 am 
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"An alternative theory of gravity popped into my head the other day. I'm no physicist ..."

This is apparent.

"It's that gravity is simply a manifestation of inertia and momentum. "

Nope. It isn't. Don't quit your day job.

"At least I have something interesting and positive to contribute."

If by interesting and positive, you mean "wrong" then there you go. Contributing
incorrect science to this site in particular is certainly not positive. Gravity is a complicated
topic and I suggest you research this further.


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