Forums :: Resources :: Features :: Photo Gallery :: Vintage Radio Shows :: Archives :: Books
Support This Site: Contributors :: Advertise


It is currently Feb Sat 16, 2019 2:34 am


All times are UTC [ DST ]





Post New Topic Post Reply  [ 18 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: How do you display modern video on vintage sets?
PostPosted: Jan Sun 06, 2019 5:56 am 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Apr Mon 16, 2012 5:31 am
Posts: 116
With video today universally 16:9, this poses the dilemma how to display it on your vintage tv which was designed for 4:3.

There are three options:
1. 16:9 to 4:3 anamorphic squeeze. (This means the full 16:9 image is displayed on the 4:3 display but the image is horizontally squished).
2. Center cut 16:9 (This means the left and right sides of the image are chopped off).
3. 16:9 "letterbox" image on 4:3. (This means the full 16:9 image is displayed but black bars appear on the top and bottom of the image).

Consumer equipment most often include a menu setting to facilitate one of the above options. However I have seen some modern devices which only facilitate 16:9 output composite analog video.

There is no best way as it is often a matter of preference. Broadcasters eventually included AFD (Active Format Description) auxiliary data in the video which some home receivers could use to actively select the proper format. But that is beyond the scope of this discussion. Certainly if one wants to display old programs originally produced for 4:3 on old sets, that should pose no problem.

Your thoughts?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How do you display modern video on vintage sets?
PostPosted: Jan Sun 06, 2019 9:07 pm 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 3973
Location: WI 54812
Penthode wrote:
With video today universally 16:9, this poses the dilemma how to display it on your vintage tv which was designed for 4:3.

There are three options:
1. 16:9 to 4:3 anamorphic squeeze. (This means the full 16:9 image is displayed on the 4:3 display but the image is horizontally squished).
2. Center cut 16:9 (This means the left and right sides of the image are chopped off).
3. 16:9 "letterbox" image on 4:3. (This means the full 16:9 image is displayed but black bars appear on the top and bottom of the image).

Consumer equipment most often include a menu setting to facilitate one of the above options. However I have seen some modern devices which only facilitate 16:9 output composite analog video.

There is no best way as it is often a matter of preference. Broadcasters eventually included AFD (Active Format Description) auxiliary data in the video which some home receivers could use to actively select the proper format. But that is beyond the scope of this discussion. Certainly if one wants to display old programs originally produced for 4:3 on old sets, that should pose no problem.

Your thoughts?
How do people watch old shows on channels like MeTV with their widescreen sets? I suppose the sides have black bars? Honest question because I don't own a widescreen and prefer not watching one. The picture always appear vertically squashed to me.

Another thing that irritates me is when I purchase an old movie on DVD and it's been put into letter box format, but others are 4:3. It's not always stated in the product description. I've gotten movie sets that have some of both mixed in. :?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How do you display modern video on vintage sets?
PostPosted: Jan Mon 07, 2019 4:40 pm 
Member

Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 898
Location: Southwestern,Ontario Canada
I use a device called Popcorn Hour A-500. It really is the best device on the market for old and new tv's. There is a slot to take any size of harddrive. I currently have a 6 TB installed. It is real easy to use and has all ways of setting it up from 16:9 (all aspect ratios, to 4:3 ( all ratios including original). It will play all video formats I have thrown at it. Although the price might seem high, I find the functionality and picture quality very good.
Just my 2 cents...
Tony

https://www.cloudmedia.com/?product=a-500

Here is a forum that discusses questions about it.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/39-netwo ... 500-a.html


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How do you display modern video on vintage sets?
PostPosted: Jan Fri 11, 2019 3:25 am 
Member

Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 970
Location: Detroit, Michigan
I have Over The Air tv through an Insignia NS-DXA1-APT box. There is a Zenith badged model also, DTT-901. There are a couple of Aspect ratio menu settings I can play with to make a screen look right.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How do you display modern video on vintage sets?
PostPosted: Jan Fri 11, 2019 5:44 am 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Nov Sat 26, 2011 4:09 am
Posts: 9274
Location: Texas. USA
Kevin Kuehn wrote:
Penthode wrote:
With video today universally 16:9, this poses the dilemma how to display it on your vintage tv which was designed for 4:3.

There are three options:
1. 16:9 to 4:3 anamorphic squeeze. (This means the full 16:9 image is displayed on the 4:3 display but the image is horizontally squished).
2. Center cut 16:9 (This means the left and right sides of the image are chopped off).
3. 16:9 "letterbox" image on 4:3. (This means the full 16:9 image is displayed but black bars appear on the top and bottom of the image).

Consumer equipment most often include a menu setting to facilitate one of the above options. However I have seen some modern devices which only facilitate 16:9 output composite analog video.

There is no best way as it is often a matter of preference. Broadcasters eventually included AFD (Active Format Description) auxiliary data in the video which some home receivers could use to actively select the proper format. But that is beyond the scope of this discussion. Certainly if one wants to display old programs originally produced for 4:3 on old sets, that should pose no problem.

Your thoughts?
How do people watch old shows on channels like MeTV with their widescreen sets? I suppose the sides have black bars? Honest question because I don't own a widescreen and prefer not watching one. The picture always appear vertically squashed to me.

Another thing that irritates me is when I purchase an old movie on DVD and it's been put into letter box format, but others are 4:3. It's not always stated in the product description. I've gotten movie sets that have some of both mixed in. :?
It can be frustrating as it's inconsistent.

I'm on basic cable and MeTV (as well as Comet and Heroes&Icons) is sent as a 'small' letter boxed widescreen so the proper viewing on my set is called "movie expand," which simply magnifies the who shebang so it fits a widescreen format (which is the ratio its broadcast in, just a smaller version). Then, original 4:3 TV shows are simply 4:3 (more on that later) and don't fill the whole screen. I.e. there are black side bars. Antenna TV, on the other hand, sends 'full size' 4:3 so I have to switch to normal, and then there's black side bars.

Either would be fine if they'd just leave the blasted source material alone but nooooo. People, so the theory goes, want 'widescreen', even when watching B&W Maverick reruns, so it's becoming more and more common for them to slightly blow up the video, crop the top/bottom, and then stretch the video so it comes 'close' to fitting widescreen, but it doesn't quite make it. The upshot is you loose a portion of the original, framing stinks, and you get short fat people, although not as bad as if the simply stretched the whole thing, and you still have black side bars, just a little smaller. Heroes and Icons does this regularly, except for Star Trek, which is still the proper size and ratio, thank god. It really burns me up because it doesn't 'fit' ANYTHING, not an old 4:3 nor a modern 16:9 TV, not to mention ruining the picture quality. But, hey, it sorta looks like widescreen and who cares about picture quality and if people look like they're overstuffed? For one, ME, but either I'm in the minority or the powers that be are out of touch with reality.

One last note, as far as I know Antenna TV doesn't do that. It's just 4"3, as originally broadcast.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How do you display modern video on vintage sets?
PostPosted: Jan Sat 12, 2019 1:14 am 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Feb Thu 17, 2011 11:27 pm
Posts: 12043
Location: Long Island, N.Y.
I never watch cable TV on my sets. I just take from my extensive library of classic shows and movies. The only issues I have with DVD's is when they have copy-guard. You get the scan lines and audio buzz going in and out. Not too many are like that though.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How do you display modern video on vintage sets?
PostPosted: Jan Tue 15, 2019 5:12 am 
Member

Joined: May Sun 07, 2017 11:35 am
Posts: 466
Location: Belrose, NSW, Australia
Copy protection lines and buzz? Have a look at this:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=332446&hilit=playing+copy+protected+DVDs


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How do you display modern video on vintage sets?
PostPosted: Jan Mon 21, 2019 2:35 pm 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Feb Thu 17, 2011 11:27 pm
Posts: 12043
Location: Long Island, N.Y.
irob2345 wrote:
Copy protection lines and buzz? Have a look at this:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=332446&hilit=playing+copy+protected+DVDs

Thank you. I did here of that. Being I'm not skilled at electronic repair I can only find it interesting. The bottom line is I use all my old TV's just for fun and am forgiving with them. The retrace lines and buzz on certain DVD's is really not that bad. Most don't have it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How do you display modern video on vintage sets?
PostPosted: Feb Sun 10, 2019 10:36 pm 
Member

Joined: Nov Wed 30, 2016 7:35 pm
Posts: 3095
Location: Sunbury, Ohio 43074
Welcome to the fascinating world of "how many standards can a TV image include". Back in the day when broadcasters were first talking about digital TV, it was initially assumed that "HDTV" (the only alphabet soup of the time) would be just one format. Oops, not so fast, said the computer people. Slow down, said the Cinematogrpahers. Hold your horses, said just about everyone else. And the BBC weighed in. So did several other major broadcasters of other formats (PAL anyone? lol)

The end result was a stunning number of resolutions, aspect ratios, and basic formats. I used to DESIGN these systems, and the equipment manufacturers, and especially their sales forces, always assured us, and everyone else, that digital would make everything simpler. Also, that the system I was engineering today would be upward compatible with future digital formats.

This quickly revealed itself to be bull puckey. We were also told that computers would make life simpler. How's that working out for everyone ?? hahahahaha

Anyway, back to the topic at hand .... as you have seen from the other replies, there is no correct answer. Just a mishmash of various choices. And guess what... the dirty little secret (or at least one of them) is that what you see at home always has gone through at least one, and probably several, conversions. If you want to see what TRUE HD VIDEO actually looks like, you almost have to see it at the point of origination (in the studio, or remote truck). By the time it gets to your home TV, it's relative junk, as good as it still manages to look.

sorry............. :shock: 8)

_________________
Preserving the history of electronics, one boat anchor at a time! :)
www.bbtvtestequipment.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How do you display modern video on vintage sets?
PostPosted: Feb Mon 11, 2019 12:20 am 
Member

Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 1364
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
I will add . . . . . I used a couple of 40 dollar coupon, set top converters, one on my RCA 621Ts and the other on a Philco Predicta I watch all the time..

As these converters are now onto 10 years old I find they "crap out". Mostly the audio has high hiss (sounds like digital noise). The set top boxes had to meet a reasonable standard for the receiver section but the modulators appear to be junk.

I guess I should look at the analog signals and see where the problem ls.

If you are trying to feed video from a DVD player, the Macrovision copy protect violates all NTSC standards. It didn't work when we still used analog TV's with a rent-a-movie on DVD or tape. There are processors that will clean most of that out of the analog video path. Look for an old Grass Valley Group 940 proc-amp.

I have a 940 proc rat-stashed and the modulator from an analog broadcast transmitter, I'm just too lazy to rack it up and feed it into my antenna system. Nobody will ever put a TV station on low V even because of government RE-Pack.

Some of the early sets need more audio carrier as TV was 20% aural until the 1950's.

Jim


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How do you display modern video on vintage sets?
PostPosted: Feb Mon 11, 2019 12:56 am 
Member

Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 652
Location: MI
jimmc wrote:
Nobody will ever put a TV station on low V even because of government RE-Pack.

Unfortunately they are:
https://blog.solidsignal.com/tutorials/ ... enna-soon/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How do you display modern video on vintage sets?
PostPosted: Feb Mon 11, 2019 4:34 pm 
Member

Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 1364
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
I was trying to be cynical'er. :)

My employment is a TV Station in High VHF band, 7 to 13. Both high V and low V propagate very poorly as compared to UHF.

We complain on a daily basis that we should have kept the UHF station and ditched the V back in 2009. We are what is called a duopoly and we run an SD version of our primary VHF station as a sub channel on the U.

Part of the problem is people buy these super-wiz-bang "Digital" antennas which don't work at all below channel 14.

It is true that all TV channels above 36 will soon go away forever as the spectrum was auctioned by the FCC and T-Mobile cellular bought most of it. Many TV markets toward the western states have already switched their transmitters. We can keep our old channel designation for branding but the RF frequency is below 36. "Repack"

I would expect that most stations on the list on that web site are on high VHF. Remember that back in the 1950's we all wanted to be channel 4 or 5.

Jim


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How do you display modern video on vintage sets?
PostPosted: Feb Mon 11, 2019 8:03 pm 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 3973
Location: WI 54812
I'm convinced we're now living in a period of communication and media calamity. Our human nature always wants more, however there's known negative side effects to having too much of many seemingly good things in our lives. I personally often times find myself needing to just turn it all off, in an attempt to regain some baseline of sanity. :shock:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How do you display modern video on vintage sets?
PostPosted: Feb Mon 11, 2019 11:46 pm 
Moderator

Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 2319
Location: Seattle, WA, USA
I prefer to centercut content for my vintage sets. I believe that this is the best of the three choices for the following reasons:

1) With this option, vintage 4x3 content will appear correctly on vintage sets
2) Modern content will fill the screen on vintage TVs which is more historically correct than black bars with 'letterbox'
3) Even if you do go for letterbox as opposed to center cut, some parts of the image (like news tickers or logos) will still be lost on the edges because modern content does not take the masking of vintage sets into account. This reduces the main advantage of letterbox.
4) No really annoying image distortion occurs as it would for anamorphic.
5) Black bars from letterbox can make it hard to sync some early sets.

-Matthew D'Asaro

_________________
If it ain't broken, you’re not trying hard enough...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How do you display modern video on vintage sets?
PostPosted: Feb Tue 12, 2019 2:02 am 
Member

Joined: May Sun 07, 2017 11:35 am
Posts: 466
Location: Belrose, NSW, Australia
In OZ all terrestial TV is now on Band 3. Five networks, each has about 10 channels, currently a mix of 720p MPEG2 and 1080p H264.

I did a new antenna install (8 element Band 3 Yagi) at my daughter's place recently. Half way down a large hill that's between the antenna and the transmitters, antenna looking into the hill. Perfect results all channels. This was in an impossible location for analog TV. OFDM is like magic!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How do you display modern video on vintage sets?
PostPosted: Feb Tue 12, 2019 4:14 pm 
Member

Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 1364
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Broadcast Television is currently 8VSB. OFDM will come when we switch to ATSC3.0.

Then you get to buy a new TV set. :)

Jim


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How do you display modern video on vintage sets?
PostPosted: Feb Tue 12, 2019 11:23 pm 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 3973
Location: WI 54812
jimmc wrote:
Broadcast Television is currently 8VSB. OFDM will come when we switch to ATSC3.0.

Then you get to buy a new TV set. :)

Jim


Do you think there will be another round of converter boxes made available in the midterm? Sounds to me like it's going to get tougher and tougher to watch over the air on our vintage sets. Your second statement won't bother us much because we never bought a digital set the last time around. Actually the wife and I have been without any broadcast TV signal for about the last 10 years after we cut the cable. Just recently found out we could pull in two OTA stations from 40 and 45 miles away on a bow tie hanging in our sun porch. We run that into a digital to analog converter box and we're once again able to watch OTA on our 1989 Mitsubishi. But we've gotten so used to watching what we want, whenever we want( on the internet), that we hardly ever have to turn the TV on. 8)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How do you display modern video on vintage sets?
PostPosted: Feb Wed 13, 2019 1:21 am 
Member

Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 1364
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
ATSC3.0 is on the air in several markets for testing. There are no sets or converter boxes on the market yet. A conventional digital TV set cannot decode it.

If you look at the transmitted signal with a Spectrum Analyzer, it is a standard 6 MHz TV channel pedestal without a pilot.

There is plenty of information out on the web.

I can assure you it works fine over an old antenna.


Top
 Profile  
 
Post New Topic Post Reply  [ 18 posts ]  Moderators: 7jp4-guy, Mr. Detrola

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Notimetolooz and 6 guests



Search for:
Jump to:  


























Privacy Policy :: Powered by phpBB