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 Post subject: New Line Cinema drama on the Farnsworth/RCA dispute
PostPosted: Dec Thu 09, 2004 10:13 am 
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This is all really good stuff!<BR>Gary<P>------------------<BR>


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 Post subject: New Line Cinema drama on the Farnsworth/RCA dispute
PostPosted: Jan Mon 03, 2005 12:52 pm 
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Farnsworth is the inventor of electronic TV.<BR>I have written and prosecuted over 250 patent applications. (MEE, MBA in advertising). I wrote a Phd thesis on Marshall McLuhan...the history and future of communications media.<P>US patent law is based on who has the idea first. Farnsworth brought his high school chemistry teacher to the patent proceedings. The teacher reproduced the drawing that Philo had made at age 14, which the USPTO accepted as conclusive proof that Philo had the idea before Zworykin.<P>In the list of most prolific inventors, Edison had over 1000, but the quantity outshines the individual quality. Lemelson, an opportunistic patent lawyer, is a very dubious 2nd. Philo is 3rd with over 300, but Philo is the inventive SPIRIT of pioneer America. That's really the main point.<P>As I understand it, when Zworkin arrived from Russian to approach Sarnoff for a job, Sarnoff told him to go spy on Farnsworth first, and see what ideas he could steal. Philo, as always needed financial help, so he revealed more than he should have, without patent protection. Zworkin went back to Sarnoff's money to develop his increased body of ideas.<P>My brother Shimon originated and wrote Mr. Wizard in 1949. He was 22 and sent it to NBC without copyright protection. Sarnoff stole it. Shimon went to court, but it was useless. I was 9 years old. I SAW MY BROTHER WRITE MR. WIZARD. (Shimon was Mr. Wizard, I was the kid; that was the image.) Sarnoff was a robber baron of the pre-antitrust period PERIOD!!!<P>ITT and RCA bottled Philo up with 43 interence suits. He went bank to work for ITT for $20k/year, and EVERYTHING HE INVENTED BELONGED TO THEM.<P>He secretly gave Philo, Jr (an EE) an idea for hi-fi. Jr. was close friends with Shimon. Shimon married Joan Taussig, an heiress, and they spent $1 million, but didn't know enough about marketing, so the invention got nowhere.<P>My favorite invention of Philo's is for an ion source (about 1966). Doron Weinfeld has invented a COLD plasma ion source, based on that invention, but incredibly more developed. It can generate a high vacuum with every parameter several orders of magnitude improvement. This will revolutionize computer chip manufacturing, cutting costs by TWO-THIRDS, because the greatest expense is the periodic down-time for re-evacuation. The invention is a BREAKTHRU IN BASIC PHYSICS. It also is being used for a HAND-HELD explosives detector, i.e., it is also an anti-terrorist breakthru. I wrote the patent for Doron for practically nothing. (My MEE major is high-vacuum plasma devices, and have 15 years experience at IBM, E. Fishkill, arguably the most advanced chip plant, so I understand the significance.)<P>Doron is struggling without sufficient funding, because practically no one understands the significance of his development.<P>WOULD SOMEONE OUT THERE CONSIDER MAKING AN INVESTMENT AND PUT A HAPPY ENDING ON THE FARNSWORTH STORY? <P>yerucha1@netvision.net.il<P>------------------<BR>Yerucham Teitelbaum


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 Post subject: New Line Cinema drama on the Farnsworth/RCA dispute
PostPosted: Jan Mon 03, 2005 10:06 pm 
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TDRyan wrote:
<font>quote:</font><HR>The teacher reproduced the drawing that Philo had made in 1914<HR>
<P>Is that supposed to read "...that Philo made <I>at age 14</I>"? <P>------------------<BR>


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 Post subject: New Line Cinema drama on the Farnsworth/RCA dispute
PostPosted: Jan Tue 04, 2005 12:14 am 
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right, age 14...about 1922 I think.<P>------------------<BR>Yerucham Teitelbaum


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 Post subject: New Line Cinema drama on the Farnsworth/RCA dispute
PostPosted: Jan Tue 04, 2005 10:15 pm 
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This is a beautiful chart of the complete history of broadcasting inventive contributions. Click on the link above the chart to get a readable navigatable version. <A HREF="http://64.246.46.100/basketsisrael.com/yerucham/farnsworth_tv.jpg" TARGET=_blank>http://64.246.46.100/basketsisrael.com/yerucham/farnsworth_tv.jpg</A> <BR> <IMG SRC="http://64.246.46.100/basketsisrael.com/yerucham/farnsworth_tv_thumb.jpg"> <P>------------------<BR>Yerucham Teitelbaum


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 Post subject: New Line Cinema drama on the Farnsworth/RCA dispute
PostPosted: Jan Wed 05, 2005 2:27 pm 
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>> Farnsworth is the inventor of electronic TV.<P>Not in my assessment. The answer for who invented what comes from a careful assessment of the technical details, not from stories about inventive spirits and robber barons.<P><< US patent law is based on who has the idea first. >><P>If you go by that, Farnsworth loses the electronic TV case. The most important idea necessary to implement a practical television camera tube came from Campbell Swinton in 1908 -- the storage principle. All practical electronic cameras today, moving, still, digital, analogue, utilize the storage principle. Farnsworth's image dissector, invented more than a decade later, didn't use the storage principle, was a dead end, and no practical camera for television broadcast ever used it.<P><< The teacher reproduced the drawing that Philo had made at age 14, which the USPTO accepted as conclusive proof that Philo had the idea before Zworykin. >><P>That's not true. The drawing had no bearing on the court's decision.<P><< As I understand it, when Zworkin arrived from Russian to approach Sarnoff for a job, Sarnoff told him to go spy on Farnsworth first, and see what ideas he could steal. >><P>That's not true. Zworykin fled Russia to escape communism. He got a job in electronics research at Westinghouse where he worked on many different electronics projects, including television. His first television patent was filed in 1923 and his first demo of a working system was in 1925. Sarnoff was not involved in any of this.<P>Zworykin did visit Farnsworth's lab around 1929 and realized the Image Dissector was a dead end. He moved to RCA and pursued his own Iconoscope which operated on different and far more practical principles.<P><< ITT and RCA bottled Philo up with 43 interence suits. >><P>Philo brought interference suits against RCA. The one most often cited (erroneously) as the one awarding Philo with electronic TV was initiated by Farnsworth, not by RCA.<P><< WOULD SOMEONE OUT THERE CONSIDER MAKING AN INVESTMENT AND PUT A HAPPY ENDING ON THE FARNSWORTH STORY? >><P>That's a tall order. The bookends of Farnsworth's career, the Image Dissector and the Fusor (home fusion power source), are dead ends. He was a clever man with a number of useful inventions, but the facts do not support the claim that Farnsworth invented electronic TV.<P>If you read only the Farnsworth side of the story, then of course you'd believe he invented electronic TV. Zworykin's autobiography, giving the other side of the story, is available here: <A HREF="http://davidsarnoff.org/vkz.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://davidsarnoff.org/vkz.htm</A> <P>Scott<P>------------------<BR>


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 Post subject: New Line Cinema drama on the Farnsworth/RCA dispute
PostPosted: Jan Wed 05, 2005 6:46 pm 
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What Sarnoff did to my brother is not a story.<BR>I lived it.<BR>Everything you say is only what you read about.<P>------------------<BR>Yerucham Teitelbaum


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 Post subject: New Line Cinema drama on the Farnsworth/RCA dispute
PostPosted: Jan Thu 06, 2005 9:31 am 
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Scott Marshall wrote:
<font>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Yerucham:<BR><B>What Sarnoff did to my brother is not a story.<BR>I lived it.<BR>Everything you say is only what you read about.<P></B><HR>
<P>I've done more than just "read about" early television. I've talked to people who knew Zworykin and his team. I've held in my hand one of the first working television camera targets that used storage. I have examined personally Zworykin's actual 1923 and 1925 all-electronic TV camera tubes (which pre-date Farnsworth's).<P>It sounds like your logic is "Sarnoff hurt my brother so Farnsworth invented electronic TV." What Sarnoff did to your brother has nothing at all to do with whether or not Farnsworth invented electronic TV.<P>I'm perfectly willing to debate the invention of television with you on this forum, but it doesn't sound like your brother's plight was TV related at all and is therefore off-topic.<P>Thanks anyway for your candor about your alterior motive. Most Farnsworth supporters have similar but hidden motives.<P>Scott<BR><P>------------------<BR>


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 Post subject: New Line Cinema drama on the Farnsworth/RCA dispute
PostPosted: Jan Thu 06, 2005 12:31 pm 
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G** d*** it Scott, the fact is Farnsworth prevailed over RCA in court. That's <I>really</I> Farnsworths greatest accomplishment, isn't it? Because that against-all-odds victory is still causing Sarnoff/Zworykin fans anguish lo these many years later. You think your arguments are more persuasive than the ones RCA's lawyers used in court? <P>------------------<BR>


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 Post subject: New Line Cinema drama on the Farnsworth/RCA dispute
PostPosted: Jan Thu 06, 2005 3:40 pm 
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Scott Marshall wrote:
<font>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TDRyan:<BR><B>G** d*** it Scott, the fact is Farnsworth prevailed over RCA in court. That's <I>really</I> Farnsworths greatest accomplishment, isn't it? Because that against-all-odds victory is still causing Sarnoff/Zworykin fans anguish lo these many years later. You think your arguments are more persuasive than the ones RCA's lawyers used in court? <P></B><HR>
<P>Farnsworth's lawyer's accomplishment was what we should praise.<P>The court decision you are referring to was very specific -- to decide whether or not Zworykin's pre-Farnsworth inventions utilized an "electric image" as Farnsworth defined it. At no time did that or any other court decide who actually invented electronic television.<P>The irony of that court decision was that television went into service in the US and Great Britain WITHOUT use of the "electric image" as Farnsworth defined it!<P>Aaron Sorkin, the Farnsworth film's screenwriter and executive producer, made TV shows on film which were transferred to video without the "electric image" as Farnsworth defined it. Sure, Farnsworth's electric image was useful later for television, but not essential.<P>Swinton's charge image was the essential invention that made television practical, which he came up with when Farnsworth was only two, and twelve years before RCA was born.<P>Scott<BR><P>------------------<BR>


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 Post subject: New Line Cinema drama on the Farnsworth/RCA dispute
PostPosted: Jan Thu 06, 2005 9:30 pm 
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Scott, if my motives are so ulterior, why would I post a chart which is so unbiased and much closer to the overall truth. One picture is worth 1000 of all our sometimes heated words. It transcends court cases and shows (albeit with no detail) how so many people contributed to TV.<P>You should read my thesis on the complete history and some of the future of communications media.<P>I wrote it 35 years ago and predicted the Internet in quite some detail. I talked about the effect of TV, but never mentioned any inventors of anything. It's really not that important in the big picture.<P>But spirit is.<P>The fact that Sarnoff was a ripoff is very much the point of this forum.<P>Reread the opening message.<P>It's to the credit of the USPTO and the American spirit in general that the 1st to get the idea is awarded the patent, and not the 1st to file, which is why Farnsworth won his case.<P>You should try to be more transcendant.<P>------------------<BR>Yerucham Teitelbaum


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 Post subject: New Line Cinema drama on the Farnsworth/RCA dispute
PostPosted: Jan Thu 06, 2005 10:08 pm 
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Surely there should have been no patents awarded at all, as A.A. Campbell Swinton's contributions to the journal 'Nature' in 1908 and 1911 rendered everything to be Prior Art.<P>Also, your chart is excellent, but misses some very important points which disregard credit for major achievements. For example, J. L. Baird was the first to demonstrate colour television using a colour wheel many years before CBS in 1940, and was also the first in the world to record a video signal, although the latter has only recently come to light.<P>It's interesting that Baird's contribution has only one box, which tellingly states "Presents first public television demonstration". Hmmm...Are we still debating who invented television?<P>Charts like these could be compiled for every single invention. I'm sure that there were many advances by individuals and companies leading to the invention of the aeroplane, but the Wright brothers still get credited. Why is less fuss made about this than television? Aeroplanes sure don't look like the Wright Flyer today.<P>And on a lighter note - Baird was Scottish, not English :-)<P><P>------------------<BR>


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 Post subject: New Line Cinema drama on the Farnsworth/RCA dispute
PostPosted: Jan Thu 06, 2005 11:13 pm 
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<< You should try to be more transcendant. >><P>You mean feelings should determine who invented TV and not facts?<P><< You should read my thesis on the complete history and some of the future of communications media. I wrote it 35 years ago >><P>Perhaps 35 years ago you didn't have the materials you needed to come up with the right answer.<P>I am this second holding in my left hand a 1908 sketch of Swinton's electronic TV system and in my right hand a 1924 sketch* of Farnsworth's image dissector. The Swinton drawing looks very much like the TV system we ended up with. The Farnsworth drawing does not. Swinton had the right answer 12 years before Farnsworth had the wrong answer, and 20 years before Sarnoff was involved. How do you transcend facts like that?<P><< It's to the credit of the USPTO and the American spirit in general that the 1st to get the idea is awarded the patent, and not the 1st to file, which is why Farnsworth won his case. >><P>Swinton was the first to get the idea. Perhaps it was in the American spirit to give priority to an American (Farnsworth) when a Scotsman (Swinton) and a Russian immigrant (Zworykin) were first. Because of their anti-semitic policies, ATT refused to work with Sarnoff, and instead worked with Farnsworth, who marketed his TV system to the Nazis. That also represented the "American spirit" of the 1930s.<P>You should read Zworykin's autobiography, which was not available to you 35 years ago, and hear my talk "The Case Against Philo Farnsworth and Claims He Invented TV" which I gave twice last year, once in New Jersey and once in Ohio.<P>*Justin Tolman's sketch of the Farnsworth Image Dissector was drawn from memory 10 years after the blackboard presentation.<BR><P>------------------<BR>


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 Post subject: New Line Cinema drama on the Farnsworth/RCA dispute
PostPosted: Jan Fri 07, 2005 12:10 am 
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<B>>>You should read Zworykin's autobiography, which was not available to you 35 years ago,</B><P>And Albert Abramson's biography "Zworykin, Pioneer of Television" (University of Illinois Press, 1995). You'll come away with a lot more appreciation of his contributions and his early struggles. As Scott points out, you could eliminate Sarnoff entirely and Farnsworth would not have "invented television."<P>A lot of new material has come to light in the past 35 years, not the least of which is a reappraisal of Baird's work.<P>------------------<BR>


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 Post subject: New Line Cinema drama on the Farnsworth/RCA dispute
PostPosted: Jan Fri 14, 2005 3:41 pm 
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Quite true: all national patent systems are designed to keep foreigners out. For instance Edison's backers found it simpler to combine with Swan in the UK rather than fight, though Edison had the practical, working system.<P>------------------<BR>


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 Post subject: New Line Cinema drama on the Farnsworth/RCA dispute
PostPosted: Jan Sat 15, 2005 10:19 am 
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Bravo Scott. I have had many videotaped interviews That I conducted with Zworykin so what I know is not what I read and I couldn't have said it better. Perhaps You should invite Yerucham to the next Early Television Convention to listen to your presentation<BR>Chuck Azar<P>------------------<BR>chuck azar


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 Post subject: New Line Cinema drama on the Farnsworth/RCA dispute
PostPosted: Jan Sat 15, 2005 10:19 am 
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Bravo Scott. I have had many videotaped interviews That I conducted with Zworykin so what I know is not what I read and I couldn't have said it better. Perhaps You should invite Yerucham to the next Early Television Convention to listen to your presentation<BR>Chuck Azar<P>------------------<BR>chuck azar


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 Post subject: New Line Cinema drama on the Farnsworth/RCA dispute
PostPosted: Jan Mon 24, 2005 2:06 pm 
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"Edison's backers found it simpler to combine with Swan in the UK rather than fight"<P>According to numerous websites, it seems that Edison and his backers didn't have a choice in the matter. Edison lost in court. The history of the lightbulb is described in the following link;<BR> <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incandescent_light_bulb" TARGET=_blank>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incandescent_light_bulb</A> <P>The relevant paragraph is;<P>"In Britain, Swan took Edison to court for patent infringement. Edison lost and as part of the settlement, Edison was forced to take Swan in as a partner in his British electric works. The company was called the Edison and Swan United Electric Company. Eventually, Edison acquired all of Swan's interest in the company. Swan sold his U.S. patent rights to the Brush Electric Company in June 1882."<P>Jason.<P>(However, I'm aware that I'm pushing off topic......apologies :-) )<P>------------------<BR>


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 Post subject: New Line Cinema drama on the Farnsworth/RCA dispute
PostPosted: Jan Mon 24, 2005 4:05 pm 
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My recollection is that Edison wanted to fight, but he wasn't calling the shots, and his backers thought it would be more expedient (in other words, they would make more money) if they combined. <P>Just a snide note (typo intentional): websites all copy from each other and are not the last word in accurate research. I'll take books with verifiable footnotes and authors who have spent years digging in real archives any day.<P>I was just looking in Bazerman's "The Languages of Edison's Light" (MIT 1999). He quotes or references a number of letters from Edison's organizers in Europe, besides quoting from contemporary writeups in technical journals. Seems there was a lot of bribing and payoffs to editors for publishing favorable material, and attention paid to choosing exhibition jury members.<P>------------------<BR>


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