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 Post subject: Re: Philco Roundie 16M91 Chassis Colour TV
PostPosted: Jun Sat 16, 2012 2:56 am 
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Joined: May Mon 07, 2012 4:01 am
Posts: 293
Location: Rome, PA
I am now one step closer. I have a replacement 6AQ5 in it's socket where it belongs.


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 Post subject: Re: Philco Roundie 16M91 Chassis Colour TV
PostPosted: Jun Tue 19, 2012 1:11 am 
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Joined: May Mon 07, 2012 4:01 am
Posts: 293
Location: Rome, PA
I believe I have a good idea on what my approach will be for this one.

As I was brainstorming earlier, I had some idea on how difficult it is going to be to find another CRT and played around with the thought on constructing and installing a laser projector on the shadow mask frame. The internal damage to the CRT structures themselves, particularly the shadow mask and the displaced phosphor, and ultimately the lack of a rebuilder, has nudged it in that direction.

So, that's the direction it's going to go.

I'm starting to put together a "shopping list" for the materials I am going to need to pull this off. This is in addition to what I'll need to do the chassis and the cabinet. Aside from the mirrors and controllers, I will need to get in touch with an expert to match the original phosphor colours to the appropriate wavelengths. This way I can use the original period colours. Right now I have 638nm, 532nm, and 452 nm, RGB respectively, along with a chance one or all will be off, either too deep or just plain not right.

Everything is going to use the signals coming from the chassis. I can sync the horizontal mirror motor driver either to the horizontal sync signal going to the horizontal oscillator, or to the horizontal deflection signal itself. Vertical deflection will be a conventional configuration just like for CRT deflection - by means of voice coils driving a mirror. This will use the vertical output on the chassis. R G and B will take the signals from the R G and B drivers.

The CRT bulb is just about apart. I've gone around at the frit line to separate the panel from the funnel by means of a circular blade designed for glass-ceramic tiles and I'm about 2/3 of the way around at this point. So far it's coming along very nicely. I will find the shadow mask tack-welded to the frame all the way around and that will not be hard to separate and remove. The panel will be cleaned thoroughly and the inside coated with white paint or primer, as a rear projection screen.

When everything's done, constructed, calibrated, and aligned, it will be encased inside the original CRT envelope. With the funnel in place, you cannot see the modern stuff I put in there, and the entire piece will look just like it's an original CRT tube. The dud gun will be in there, and I'll have it set up so that when the CRT socket is plugged in, you'll see an orange glow coming from three places in the back of the gun. I will need a new base for it since the original was destroyed when it got clobbered.

This is the tentative plan, hopefully I will not need to change anything.


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 Post subject: Re: Philco Roundie 16M91 Chassis Colour TV
PostPosted: Jun Tue 19, 2012 1:46 am 
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Joined: May Mon 11, 2009 12:19 am
Posts: 412
Location: LA
Before hawkeye closed I had a few 21fjps rebuilt as an investment.


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 Post subject: Re: Philco Roundie 16M91 Chassis Colour TV
PostPosted: Jun Tue 19, 2012 2:05 am 
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Joined: May Mon 07, 2012 4:01 am
Posts: 293
Location: Rome, PA
shango6 wrote:
Before hawkeye closed I had a few 21fjps rebuilt as an investment.


Are you trying to tell me something? :)

If so, note me. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Philco Roundie 16M91 Chassis Colour TV
PostPosted: Jun Tue 19, 2012 3:36 am 
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Joined: May Mon 07, 2012 4:01 am
Posts: 293
Location: Rome, PA
I think it's safe to report that I have successfully separated the panel and funnel. Now that I've separated the panel and funnel on this CRT, imagine what else I can separate the panel and funnel on just because I now know that I can. Some of which aren't even CRTs. :P


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 Post subject: Re: Philco Roundie 16M91 Chassis Colour TV
PostPosted: Jun Tue 19, 2012 4:17 am 
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Joined: May Mon 11, 2009 12:19 am
Posts: 412
Location: LA
I think it would be cool to make a bong out of a small crt and a few signal/sweep tubes.


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 Post subject: Re: Philco Roundie 16M91 Chassis Colour TV
PostPosted: Jun Tue 19, 2012 4:46 am 
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Joined: May Mon 07, 2012 4:01 am
Posts: 293
Location: Rome, PA
shango6 wrote:
I think it would be cool to make a bong out of a small crt and a few signal/sweep tubes.

:lol: That would certainly make for some interesting pieces. I'll have to see it when it's done. Since I got the funnel off this CRT I could just about play the opening of "Hells Bells" on it.

And because I know I'm going to have someone down the line saying "you did not take that 21FJP22 apart at the frit line, you cannot take a CRT apart at the frit line"....


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 Post subject: Re: Philco Roundie 16M91 Chassis Colour TV
PostPosted: Jun Tue 19, 2012 10:14 pm 
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Joined: Dec Thu 06, 2007 11:54 pm
Posts: 717
Location: Hayward, California USA
Very interesting to see a disassembled round color CRT, thank you for posting the pictures.

The one 21FJP22 I removed the faceplate from has markings similar to the ones you called "artifacts". They are in the areas of the screen that would not be seen behind the bezel of a TV set. I bet they are related to getting proper alignment of the phosphor dots onto the screen surface of the CRT when it was manufactured.

_________________
(Antique TV collecting) always seemed to me to be a fringe hobby that only weirdos did.


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 Post subject: Re: Philco Roundie 16M91 Chassis Colour TV
PostPosted: Jun Wed 20, 2012 12:50 am 
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Joined: May Mon 07, 2012 4:01 am
Posts: 293
Location: Rome, PA
The same matching marks are also on the shadow mask. This is why you see a line one pixel wide at the top, and a phallic shape at the bottom. The alignment idea sounds plausible.

Other artifacts are either letters or numbers on both sides of these and they were easy to make. In this case, an 11, a 21, a 31, and a charlie. They're made during exposure of a single colour dot, a piece of glass with the figure written or drawn on it placed on that area of the shadow mask prevents exposure of the dots by masking those dots. The areas that are not exposed the phosphor dots wash away. No idea what these four figures mean.

The shadow mask itself is now separated from it's frame. In separating it, I noticed something else that can come apart real easy from forces outside the CRT. The barrier along the outside of the shadow mask is loosely tack welded to the frame. This prevents the electron beams from getting to the other side of the shadow mask and causing undesired effects along the edge. When the degauss coil is activated and you hear a rattle inside the CRT, that is the barrier along the outside of the shadow mask frame. And if it vibrates too often, the weld points will separate. You may want to limit when the degauss coil is activated if your CRT rattles in the degaussing field like that.

There are a few points where this shadow mask got bumped from behind but yet it still appears to be a museum quality piece. I don't know if there's any interest or not in museums or the community for a piece like this, given that it doesn't have any functional value now and the frame isn't included. Though something tells me that it is still an early telly artifact.


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 Post subject: Re: Philco Roundie 16M91 Chassis Colour TV
PostPosted: Dec Thu 13, 2012 6:50 am 
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Joined: May Mon 07, 2012 4:01 am
Posts: 293
Location: Rome, PA
I lost my list for this too.

I know I said I'd be doing the filters and audio IF board first, but the way it's looking now, I'd be doing the CRT first. Since, well, it's the very first thing I can get to.

I really need to stop hoarding all of this other S-word. :| Whole bunch of stuff I haven't touched in over a year, DirecTV and Dish boxes, printers, DVD players and VCR's all in the way, two pails filled with who knows, and an Emerson clock radio that hasn't been touched since June. Heck, I don't even think it has the tubes and cord with it.

450 nm Blue
532nm Green
650nm Red

I have to look up the wattages all over again. These are the diodes that go in the beam combiner. And I can't even begin to list the caps again until I can actually get to the chassis

I'm not going to start actually building the mech until I've finished the beam combiner.


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 Post subject: Re: Philco Roundie 16M91 Chassis Colour TV
PostPosted: Dec Thu 13, 2012 12:40 pm 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 373
Location: moreno valley
shango6 wrote:
The capacitors will test good but then fail a short time after returned to use. I see that in almost every 60s color set I bring back to life.


Which ones, and in what sections, do you normally change?


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 Post subject: Re: Philco Roundie 16M91 Chassis Colour TV
PostPosted: Dec Mon 17, 2012 3:57 am 
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Joined: May Mon 07, 2012 4:01 am
Posts: 293
Location: Rome, PA
frenchmarky wrote:
shango6 wrote:
The capacitors will test good but then fail a short time after returned to use. I see that in almost every 60s color set I bring back to life.


Which ones, and in what sections, do you normally change?


In this set, your electrolytics, your bumblebees, any and all wax and paper caps, and your orange drops too. It's these that brought up their initial testing good but failing shortly after if not immediately when they returned to service. It's also been mentioned leaving the ones in the IF strip alone unless you absolutely need to change them.


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 Post subject: Re: Philco Roundie 16M91 Chassis Colour TV
PostPosted: Dec Mon 17, 2012 4:10 am 
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Joined: May Mon 07, 2012 4:01 am
Posts: 293
Location: Rome, PA
For those following along with me at home, I just did some prep on the panel. The old dead phosphour wiped off relatively easy. The aluminum plating outlining the coloured dots and along the outside edge was a different story. It needed to be removed completely from the viewing area otherwise the new coating that I will apply will flake off. I found that a small amount of PCB etchant just enough to cover the area works nicely on clearing aluminum and copper plating deposit from glass as it does on boards. ;)

I'm holding on everything now, I'm going to take a look at that Emerson. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Philco Roundie 16M91 Chassis Colour TV
PostPosted: Dec Tue 18, 2012 4:09 am 
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Joined: May Mon 07, 2012 4:01 am
Posts: 293
Location: Rome, PA
I just now found out that what I'm trying to do, I need to be a black belt at. And that's being a master at the thin even coat without heavy dark blotches and pinholes. I cannot shine a flashlight from behind and see the flashlight beam from the other side, without seeing the heavy dark blotches where the coat is heavier and lighter where it isn't, riddled with pinholes which is exceptionally dangerous in the final product. It also means I need to clear off what I just laid down without damaging the inside surface before attempting this again or something else. I really need some ideas.


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 Post subject: Re: Philco Roundie 16M91 Chassis Colour TV
PostPosted: Dec Wed 19, 2012 5:13 pm 
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Joined: Nov Mon 19, 2012 1:08 am
Posts: 13
Automotive paint spray gun. Practice on an old piece of window glass.

I wonder if what you are calling pinholes is what we in the painting trade would call "fisheyes", areas where having oil (even finger prints) will force the paint to pull away at the edges.

As to the idea of a laser display, you might be interested to know that a late 60s/early 70s Zenith shareholder's report shows the company working on that display technology (and a working prototype image). These were posted in PDF format on the videokarma site.


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 Post subject: Re: Philco Roundie 16M91 Chassis Colour TV
PostPosted: Dec Thu 20, 2012 8:45 am 
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Joined: May Mon 07, 2012 4:01 am
Posts: 293
Location: Rome, PA
Carmine440 wrote:
Automotive paint spray gun. Practice on an old piece of window glass.

I wonder if what you are calling pinholes is what we in the painting trade would call "fisheyes", areas where having oil (even finger prints) will force the paint to pull away at the edges.

As to the idea of a laser display, you might be interested to know that a late 60s/early 70s Zenith shareholder's report shows the company working on that display technology (and a working prototype image). These were posted in PDF format on the videokarma site.


Actually, no. I'm surprised I didn't have fish eyes this time around since it's what I normally do get laying paint on something. The pinholes I'm seeing is because of the uneven laying, because it sprays in particles when it comes out of the can, and doesn't cover entirely in light coats, thus the visible pinpricks when a light shone from behind. And it is a flat paint. I made sure it was clean before laying anything, making sure there was no water, remaining etchant, and of course, keeping my hands off that side. I'm in the process of removing what I had laid earlier this week. It's very time consuming, and makes me wish I could build a special oven to bake it off in one shot. Be more thorough, too, then I can start fresh.

I don't want to use this again, since the paint itself is too opaque in any amount.

I'd certainly be interested in looking at that. If I knew what they were doing, I'm sure there's something I can use that would save me a lot of headaches and guesswork. I'm also wondering if there's an actual screen paint I can put on it. I'm finding regular screen paint, perhaps I'm not using the right keywords. Who knows.


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 Post subject: Re: Philco Roundie 16M91 Chassis Colour TV
PostPosted: Dec Sat 22, 2012 7:11 am 
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Joined: May Mon 07, 2012 4:01 am
Posts: 293
Location: Rome, PA
I think I found what I'm looking for.

http://www.avace.com/Goo-Systems-/4771. ... OgodmH4AKw

It lists glass as a suitable substrate. And it seems it's as simple as spraying it on and it's done. The other stuff I tried turned out to be a huge epic fail and I found something to get that garbage out, without having to resort to further scraping and a bake-out. The downside is I can see where I was scraping earlier from the other side. Nothing major, but it is noticable if the light hits it right. Hopefully the next stuff I try will fill it in and won't be noticable.


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