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 Post subject: Re: On AM radio alignment the bands end and begin dont match
PostPosted: Nov Tue 28, 2017 6:23 am 
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Jim....why would you align a radio to outside of the tuning range?

You don't want to, but if the schematic is misleading you could do it by accident.

Quote:
Here are the alignment instructions for the 6515 (there is no information for an A suffixed model), straight out of a Channel Master service manual.

That isn't likely to be a Channel Master service manual. It looks like a Sams Photofact. Sams drew their own schematics and made up their own service information. Sometimes they made made mistakes.

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 Post subject: Re: On AM radio alignment the bands end and begin dont match
PostPosted: Nov Tue 28, 2017 6:45 am 
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Jim Mueller wrote:
Quote:
Jim....why would you align a radio to outside of the tuning range?

You don't want to, but if the schematic is misleading you could do it by accident.

Quote:
Here are the alignment instructions for the 6515 (there is no information for an A suffixed model), straight out of a Channel Master service manual.

That isn't likely to be a Channel Master service manual. It looks like a Sams Photofact. Sams drew their own schematics and made up their own service information. Sometimes they made made mistakes.

Right. I have every reason to lie. Perhaps you can name one.


Attachments:
CM Service Guide.jpg
CM Service Guide.jpg [ 155.65 KiB | Viewed 227 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: On AM radio alignment the bands end and begin dont match
PostPosted: Nov Tue 28, 2017 7:08 am 
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So fifties...what does the alignment say in the 'service manual'...for the 6515....?


You must have everything ....service manuals....sams...rider, ...
That is cool..


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 Post subject: Re: On AM radio alignment the bands end and begin dont match
PostPosted: Nov Tue 28, 2017 8:32 pm 
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Hi Kenny,

What I had previously posted, alignment instructions, was right out of the CM service manual, the cover of which is just above, so you got it right from the "horse's mouth".

Don't let Jim's post confuse you. In fact I'm waiting to see what he has to say. :wink:

Richard

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 Post subject: Re: On AM radio alignment the bands end and begin dont match
PostPosted: Nov Wed 29, 2017 12:06 am 
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Just to add more confusion :) my 6515's pointer is off. It goes past the 540 at the bottom and does not reach to 1600. The radio works fine but the dial pointer itself needs to be removed and placed in the correct spot.

Was this radio off that it needed alignment to begin with? Did you mark the original positions of the adjustments? If you did, how far off are they now?

-Ed


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 Post subject: Re: On AM radio alignment the bands end and begin dont match
PostPosted: Nov Wed 29, 2017 3:02 am 
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Ed in SoDak wrote:
Just to add more confusion :) my 6515's pointer is off. It goes past the 540 at the bottom and does not reach to 1600. The radio works fine but the dial pointer itself needs to be removed and placed in the correct spot.

Was this radio off that it needed alignment to begin with? Did you mark the original positions of the adjustments? If you did, how far off are they now?

-Ed

That's right, the dial pointer comes off.

When I first got my 6515 I had to completely dismantle the radio including the dial pointer because the dial face was corroded from the battery, had to replace that as well.

I had photos I took before dis-assembly so I just put the pointer back in the same position. No issues.

Ken, did you check to see if the pointer stops at exact vertical position at the top and bottom of the dial?

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 Post subject: Re: On AM radio alignment the bands end and begin dont match
PostPosted: Nov Wed 29, 2017 6:59 am 
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fifties wrote:
Jim Mueller wrote:
Quote:
Jim....why would you align a radio to outside of the tuning range?

You don't want to, but if the schematic is misleading you could do it by accident.

Quote:
Here are the alignment instructions for the 6515 (there is no information for an A suffixed model), straight out of a Channel Master service manual.

That isn't likely to be a Channel Master service manual. It looks like a Sams Photofact. Sams drew their own schematics and made up their own service information. Sometimes they made made mistakes.

Right. I have every reason to lie. Perhaps you can name one.

Well I'll be! That's a new one on me. Perhaps Channel Master hired a former Sams draftsman or maybe they just thought that it was a good style. It sure looks the same though.

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 Post subject: Re: On AM radio alignment the bands end and begin dont match
PostPosted: Nov Wed 29, 2017 12:35 pm 
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Perhaps there was an agreement with Sams to use their artwork in the US service manuals since Channel Master did not make the radios.

Dave


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 Post subject: Re: On AM radio alignment the bands end and begin dont match
PostPosted: Nov Wed 29, 2017 9:48 pm 
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Their service manual has two parts; the first states specific defects on particular models, and the servicing procedures to follow. It appears to be "home grown".

The second displays "Service Manual and Spare Parts List". The reason that the information looks like it came from SAM's, is because it did. On the bottom of the facing page of the one I posted above giving alignment instructions, is a SAM's 1960 copyright.

On the back of my 6515 at the bottom is embossed, "Made exclusively for Channel Master Corp by Sanyo Electric Company, LTD.

So the brand apparently used Sanyo for manufacturing, and SAM's for most of their tech literature.

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 Post subject: Re: On AM radio alignment the bands end and begin dont match
PostPosted: Nov Wed 29, 2017 10:50 pm 
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Ed in SoDak, or others.....when you put the indicator back on, there is a small DOT at the top of the face plate and that is where, no matter what, the indicator goes...when the tuning cap is in the fully closed place..or all the way on the low end...

KNY


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 Post subject: Re: On AM radio alignment the bands end and begin dont match
PostPosted: Nov Thu 30, 2017 12:57 am 
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Quote:
The front for the radio starts at 540 and ends at 1600. That is the physical range.


Quote:
Just to add more confusion :) my 6515's pointer is off. It goes past the 540 at the bottom and does not reach to 1600. The radio works fine but the dial pointer itself needs to be removed and placed in the correct spot.


The manufacturer's instructions say fully open the tuning capacitor, NOT set it to 1600 on the dial - then set the trimmer for maximum signal with the generator set to 1650kHz - it does not matter if that is not on the marked tuning spot on the dial. If the pointer does not line up with the 1600 mark when the generator is set to 1600 then move the pointer without moving the tuning capacitor.

Repeat for fully closed and keep on repeating until it comes right - that's why it says "repeat steps 2 and 3".

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 Post subject: Re: On AM radio alignment the bands end and begin dont match
PostPosted: Nov Thu 30, 2017 2:15 am 
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quote Majoco: "If the pointer does not line up with the 1600 mark when the generator is set to 1600 then move the pointer without moving the tuning capacitor."

Bingo! What I was trying to say was if Kenny was realigning simply because the stations weren't showing up in the correct spot on the dial, it may be because the pointer is misaligned. And Kenny may not be fully opening or closing the tuning cap when he aligns. If he was instead trusting the tuning cap's matching the dial pointer , who knows where the set was actually tuned to. So I'd align by the tuning cap physical limits as per instructions, then reposition the pointer to agree with or at least be centered in respect to dial markings like Martin and others have been saying. And yes, tracking according to dial markings is often a compromise and not meant as a spot-on tuning indicator. Just close, like hand-grenades.

Like I said before, I brought it up as something else to muddy the waters. Or to at least explain a bit of the apparent poor dial tracking. As long as you accept the dial isn't gospel, it should go alright.

-Ed


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 Post subject: Re: On AM radio alignment the bands end and begin dont match
PostPosted: Nov Thu 30, 2017 4:20 am 
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fifties wrote:
Their service manual has two parts; the first states specific defects on particular models, and the servicing procedures to follow. It appears to be "home grown".

The second displays "Service Manual and Spare Parts List". The reason that the information looks like it came from SAM's, is because it did. On the bottom of the facing page of the one I posted above giving alignment instructions, is a SAM's 1960 copyright.

On the back of my 6515 at the bottom is embossed, "Made exclusively for Channel Master Corp by Sanyo Electric Company, LTD.

So the brand apparently used Sanyo for manufacturing, and SAM's for most of their tech literature.

Sams created the service manuals for the Channel Master radios for their Photofact and TSM series as the radios were issued over a period of years. Channel Master later used them when they came out with their "Channel Master Transistor Radio Service Clinic" that they issued to their dealers. I have several copies of the service clinic booklets.

This is an example of what the original Channel Master literature showed for schematics:


Attachment:
CM 6514 radio schematic.JPG
CM 6514 radio schematic.JPG [ 90.28 KiB | Viewed 145 times ]



.


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 Post subject: Re: On AM radio alignment the bands end and begin dont match
PostPosted: Nov Thu 30, 2017 4:56 am 
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SO setting the cap fully closed(at 530) and moving the indicator to the dot on the metal backing plate is not the way to do it??

Fully open is 1650 going by the alignment instructions.


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 Post subject: Re: On AM radio alignment the bands end and begin dont match
PostPosted: Nov Thu 30, 2017 7:53 am 
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Kenny, the "way to do it" is what looks right to you. Adjusting the position of the tuning dial to approximate "close enough" at each end of the dial would seem to approximate "good enough". The center of the dial, however, around 1000 KC, may not be right on, but it's all a trade off in order to get everything, again, close enough. Keep in mind that consumer grade equipment has a leeway of +/- 15 up to 20 percent. If it were lab grade, then we'd be looking at more like 1%.

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 Post subject: Re: On AM radio alignment the bands end and begin dont match
PostPosted: Nov Thu 30, 2017 8:08 am 
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fifties wrote:
Their service manual has two parts; the first states specific defects on particular models, and the servicing procedures to follow. It appears to be "home grown".

The second displays "Service Manual and Spare Parts List". The reason that the information looks like it came from SAM's, is because it did. On the bottom of the facing page of the one I posted above giving alignment instructions, is a SAM's 1960 copyright.

On the back of my 6515 at the bottom is embossed, "Made exclusively for Channel Master Corp by Sanyo Electric Company, LTD.

So the brand apparently used Sanyo for manufacturing, and SAM's for most of their tech literature.

Double well I'll be! We were both right.

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 Post subject: Re: On AM radio alignment the bands end and begin dont match
PostPosted: Nov Thu 30, 2017 3:55 pm 
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fifties wrote:
Kenny, the "way to do it" is what looks right to you. Adjusting the position of the tuning dial to approximate "close enough" at each end of the dial would seem to approximate "good enough". The center of the dial, however, around 1000 KC, may not be right on, but it's all a trade off in order to get everything, again, close enough. Keep in mind that consumer grade equipment has a leeway of +/- 15 up to 20 percent. If it were lab grade, then we'd be looking at more like 1%.

wise man speak truth....
The tracking of the typical consumer radio is never perfect. Even if you get the dial readings reasonably close, the RF adjustments will usually only "peak up" at one point on the dial. For anything sold to the mass markets--it's all about "good enough".

For simple sets, I typically do not look at the alignment instructions---except maybe to help ID the available adjustments.
1. at the low end, adjust mechanical position, inductance, or padder cap
2. at the high end, adjust trimmer cap
3. repeat as required

My "good enough" is defined by the ability to clearly receive specific local stations in approximately the right place on the dial.

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 Post subject: Re: On AM radio alignment the bands end and begin dont match
PostPosted: Nov Thu 30, 2017 6:48 pm 
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Got it...thanks to all that helped....I will peak it around 1000 and let it go....now I have the whole picture...and this is what I wanted to hear...

One more thing looking at where you adjust the alignment...what is the upper left trimmer used for...lower right is oscillator, lower left and upper right is antenna adjust ,,,but nothing is for the upper left trimmer...

THANKS TO ALL.....

Kenny


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 Post subject: Re: On AM radio alignment the bands end and begin dont match
PostPosted: Dec Fri 01, 2017 6:16 am 
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Kennynva wrote:
One more thing looking at where you adjust the alignment...what is the upper left trimmer used for...lower right is oscillator, lower left and upper right is antenna adjust ,,,but nothing is for the upper left trimmer...

Kenny

Can you reference this question to the adjustments shown in the alignment instructions posted earlier by fifties? There are a total of nine adjustments in the procedure, and I see all of them on the diagram.

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 Post subject: Re: On AM radio alignment the bands end and begin dont match
PostPosted: Dec Fri 01, 2017 9:39 am 
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Yes, but it shows four circles on the back of the tuning cap "M2" but the top left 'trimmer' is not annotated nor mentioned in the alignment instructions - perhaps it would be mentioned in the two-band model as a trimmer for the marine band.

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