Forums :: Resources :: Features :: Photo Gallery :: Vintage Radio Shows :: Archives :: Books
Support This Site: Contributors :: Advertise


It is currently Dec Thu 13, 2018 9:15 am


All times are UTC [ DST ]





Post New Topic Post Reply  [ 21 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Companion Receiver For Pine board Project (Bob Heil version)
PostPosted: Dec Thu 06, 2018 1:53 am 
Member

Joined: Nov Wed 14, 2012 11:29 pm
Posts: 292
Location: Florissant, Mo 63033
I intend to build Bob Heil's Pine board AM Transmitter. I'll need a receiver to go with it. The receiver needs to be good for 40 meter AM phone. I'd prefer that it not be excessively large, but would not turn my nose up at a descent Boat anchor if I see a bargain. Also it needs to have a built in power supply.

There is a big hamfest coming up soon. Could you all make some suggestions on units I should look for?

Unfortunately, money will be an issue.

All feedback appreciated!

_________________
KD0UYH


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Companion Receiver For Pine board Project (Bob Heil vers
PostPosted: Dec Thu 06, 2018 2:57 am 
Member

Joined: Jan Mon 28, 2013 9:35 pm
Posts: 1180
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Build a regen in the same style as the Heil transmitter.
You'll be amazed at the performance you can get out
of two or three tubes! Send me a PM with your email addr
and I'll send pics and info of several I've built. Have even
incorporated eye tubes in the past few. There were many
articles in ER magazine about regen projects.

A word of caution....designing and building regens can be
addictive!

And if you want to take it up a notch, do a google
search on 'paraset'.
Steve W6SSP

_________________
'cell phones and the internet are tools, not a lifestyle'


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Companion Receiver For Pine board Project (Bob Heil vers
PostPosted: Dec Thu 06, 2018 8:39 pm 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jun Wed 08, 2011 2:33 am
Posts: 7485
Location: Ohio 45177
For AM use, you do not need to worry about the expense of very narrow selectivity or stability needed for CW or SSB use. That leaves alot of things like SWL general coverage receivers plausible to use for that specific app. I have been able to get hams on the AM roundtables on my 1937 Zenith cube radio with a ten foot wire. But I would prefer some sort of communications receiver for the purpose. You want a sensitive radio as some of those guys run low power on AM. A ham receiver that is only optimized for SSB and CW will not sound as good on a wide AM signal as they were not really meant for that. For instance, I have a ca. 1970 Allied receiver with ham bandspread that has narrow filters and those work OK on SSB but AM sounds terrible on it, even though it has general coverage. Maybe look at something like a National or Hallicrafters tube set. OR Hammarlund, which cost more. The older tube SWL/ham sets had to work with AM and sometimes are less good for SSB or CW but can work for all three if you understand the shortcomings. There are too many possibilities to make a list. Many will fall into the boatanchor category, so think big and heavy. Then there are some solid state sets like the Allied AX 190 or even the Realistic DX 160 types. Realistic Radio Shack made a bunch of solid state receivers that could be fine for AM ham reception, as well as Japanese brands. One thing that you should consider is if the receiver has a mute or standby function for use when you transmit, and be sure you can isolate the receiver ant. when you are transmitting or you might fry the receiver front end.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Companion Receiver For Pine board Project (Bob Heil vers
PostPosted: Dec Thu 06, 2018 11:18 pm 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 13075
Location: S. Dartmouth MA 02748-1225 USA
SW-3, remote power supply puts the hum on the floor...

_________________
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
"Gandhi"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Companion Receiver For Pine board Project (Bob Heil vers
PostPosted: Dec Fri 07, 2018 12:46 am 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jun Wed 08, 2011 2:33 am
Posts: 7485
Location: Ohio 45177
I like the SW 3 idea but he stated money will be an issue and there are none of those cheap, anymore, especially with the power pack and the coils. But building a regen from scratch is an option, if you have the time and skills and patience.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Companion Receiver For Pine board Project (Bob Heil vers
PostPosted: Dec Fri 07, 2018 1:25 am 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jun Sun 19, 2011 2:31 pm
Posts: 5871
A single band regen can be very inexpensive to build and would make a nice companion to a homebrew transmitter. Or since you are using it for AM you can build a simple one tube converter for use with a broadcast receiver. Because you are running low power AM on 40 you don't need a lot of sensitivity and a one tube converter will have all the gain/sensitivity you can use.

1950s era magazines like Radio and Television News (available for free download on the American Radio History site) and early ARRL handbooks and "Understanding Amateur Radio" guides are good sources for simple regen and superhet building plans as are the Orr "West Coast" handbooks.

The photos below are from a February 1954 Radio and TV News article featuring a very simple 4 tube superhet and the other from September 1953 has a complete simple novice station.

Using a regen for AM takes a bit of practice as you balance the somewhat competing factors of gain and selectivity (which can become excessively narrow as you approach critical regeneration).

Rodger WQ9E


Attachments:
4 tube Feb 1954.jpg
4 tube Feb 1954.jpg [ 233.84 KiB | Viewed 340 times ]
Simple novice station September 1953.jpg
Simple novice station September 1953.jpg [ 229.39 KiB | Viewed 340 times ]
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Companion Receiver For Pine board Project (Bob Heil vers
PostPosted: Dec Fri 07, 2018 7:00 am 
Member

Joined: Dec Sun 14, 2008 3:33 pm
Posts: 754
Location: Tokyo
In the spirit of primitive rigs like pine board transmitters (I love primitive rigs), I suggest a basic double triode regen: detector followed by audio amp. For use with headphones.

Here's an example with a very thorough write-up:

https://faculty.frostburg.edu/phys/latt ... nplex.html

The above uses a single 6SN7 double triode. I've made double triode regens with that tube, and also with the 12AU7, 12AT7, 6J6, 3A5, 12BE6 (triode connected) X2, a bunch with triode/pentode 9 pin miniatures like the 6JN8, 6EA8, 6AW8 (pentode in triode mode), etc. You can use almost anything. What do you have on hand? Once they're set up and running properly, there's really no difference. Expect AM sensitivity (just below oscillation) on the level of a 6BE6 converter front end superhet (S38, NC60, etc). Plenty good enough for 40 meters. CW sensitivity is quite a bit better, below band noise up to at least 20MHz. Of course, regen selectivity is not nearly as good as a S38 level superhet on 40 meters, but if you keep signal levels low to the detector, and the audio gain up, it is acceptable. Keep in mind you won't have to deal with what used to be the bane of AM phone operation: carrier heterodynes. (Thank you, SSBers).

The main thing is to build them solid, like a VFO, which is, after all, what they are. A well built regen is a real pleasure to operate. A flimsy regen is pure frustration.

A double triode needs only a handful of parts. They draw so little current that you can use 9 volt batteries in series for the B+ and they'll last many months.

The fewer the parts and complexity, the greater the fun.

Google 'twinplex regen' for more examples and info.

Rob


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Companion Receiver For Pine board Project (Bob Heil vers
PostPosted: Dec Fri 07, 2018 3:03 pm 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Oct Sun 15, 2006 12:57 pm
Posts: 5937
Location: Liberty, Missouri
There are several single tube regenerative receivers from the forties and fifties that wold go well with your transmitter. This fellow has quite an array of bread board receivers.


One of the most popular commercially available receivers of the 50s was the Hallicrafters S38 series of receivers. One of them would be a good companion to your transmitter.

Image

I've used it with my little Gonset Commander transmitter several times.

Image

_________________
Pics, Bold & underlined text, are usually links.

https://mikeharrison.smugmug.com/

Mike


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Companion Receiver For Pine board Project (Bob Heil vers
PostPosted: Dec Fri 07, 2018 6:07 pm 
Member

Joined: Nov Wed 14, 2012 11:29 pm
Posts: 292
Location: Florissant, Mo 63033
Thanks for all the input! I actually am planning to build one of these.

http://www.ke3ij.com/JFETrgn.htm

I've built a couple of his BCB regens and they worked very well. I know it's not tube, but for now I can build it for almost nothing. If I build it well and maybe splurge on a good Vernier dial perhaps it will work out. If I build it into a box and find an an old analog meter to incorporate (for some funtion), it will give it a vintage look.

Now you guys have my interest up in building a tube receiver as well. I'm studying up on them now. I'm trying to figure out what makes the difference between a regen that's good for CW and one that's good for phone (Need to receive phone mode). Are their design considerations for phone mode, or do they work just as well for both?

And I'm salivating over the two units you guys showed in this thread. I don't know how I ever missed them. (The SW3 and the Gonset Commander). Wow! Those are cool! I'm sure pricey too. Maybe someday.

Also, I do have an old S38 that I recapped some years ago. It makes everyone sound like they have lisps (slurring the "S"s. Needing alignment maybe? Perhaps it's also time to try to do my firs alignment. I've got an old Philco 077 that would probably suffice, and could get a Frequency Counter.

Anyway, thanks much for all the input. You guys have given me a lot to chew on! And that's a good thing!

_________________
KD0UYH


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Companion Receiver For Pine board Project (Bob Heil vers
PostPosted: Dec Fri 07, 2018 8:05 pm 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jun Sun 19, 2011 2:31 pm
Posts: 5871
Deadshort wrote:

Now you guys have my interest up in building a tube receiver as well. I'm studying up on them now. I'm trying to figure out what makes the difference between a regen that's good for CW and one that's good for phone (Need to receive phone mode). Are their design considerations for phone mode, or do they work just as well for both?



You have some interesting projects planned and I look forward to progress updates!

In my experience, an "OK" regen still does a good job for CW but for AM a better designed regen is very advisable. What I find most helpful for AM is a regen that has some gain before the detector and plenty of gain after the detector; this gives you a great deal of flexibility in the level of regeneration selected and makes operation much less critical and simpler.

I have a bunch of regens and my favorites are the very well designed military RAK and RAL sets which are quite stable and have significant amplification pre and post detection and they both perform well on AM, the RAL in particular because the RAK is designed primarily for narrow signals given its frequency coverage. I have several Sargent regen sets and they are also good performers with sufficient RF and audio gain. The classic National SW-3 also works well although in my experience it is a small step down from my Sargent receivers and a big step down from the RAK/RAL pair.

I also have some simple kit built sets from the Great Depression era and although they will reasonably receive AM, receiving a weaker AM signal isn't particularly pleasant (but it is doable).

The first kit I built was a Science Fair "Globe Patrol" transistorized shortwave regen. I had a lot of fun using it in the early 1970s when the bands were loaded with high power shortwave broadcast stations but it was a chore to use with weaker stations where the regen control has to be exactly right, too little and there is not enough amplification and too much results in a hetrodyne. AM can also be received on these by increasing the oscillator where it breaks into oscillation and with heavy coupling the oscillator will lock to the signal. In theory this works well, in amateur practice you will run into additional hetrodyne interference from other stations along with your oscillator not staying perfectly locked resulting in less than pleasant operation. It is something like a phase locked loop that doesn't stay locked as well as you would like :)

Listen to other's opinions on this also because we all have our own likes and dislikes. In general, what makes a regen work well for AM will also make it work very well for CW but at least in my experience good AM performance requires a better quality regen receiver.
I have operated CW quite a bit with several different regen sets but I have never found AM operation particularly pleasant when using one for amateur radio communications. For you local broadcaster it will work quite well.

On edit, I am heading out now so I don't have time to look it up but there was an excellent QST article in the 30s with a title close to "what is wrong with our present regens" and the late and great Bruce Vaughan had an excellent series of regen building articles in Electric Radio that also touched upon the early QST article. Hopefully someone else can fill in the details.

Rodger WQ9E


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Companion Receiver For Pine board Project (Bob Heil vers
PostPosted: Dec Sat 08, 2018 11:58 am 
Member

Joined: Dec Sun 14, 2008 3:33 pm
Posts: 754
Location: Tokyo
Rodger, possibly one of these articles:

Robinson, Regenerative Detectors: What We Get From Them, How To Get More. QST. Feb 1933.

De Cola, Increased Sensitivity With Regenerative Detectors. QST. Dec 1934.

Gager and Graham, A Regenerative Receiver With High Audio Selectivity. QST. Feb 1938.

Talbert, The Simple Regenerative Receiver With Separate Beat Oscillator. QST. Feb 1936.

QST up to 1941 available here:

http://www.rsp-italy.it/Electronics/Mag ... /index.htm

(Thank you, Italy).

Rob


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Companion Receiver For Pine board Project (Bob Heil vers
PostPosted: Dec Sat 08, 2018 4:56 pm 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jun Sun 19, 2011 2:31 pm
Posts: 5871
Rob,

Thanks for providing those links but I think it was another article and James Millen might have been the author. I need to fire up my older PC that is still running XP so I can use the QST view CD ROM index; maybe if I am lucky the QST view program will run under Linux on my dual boot workstation but I know the index/control program won't run under Win 10.

For anyone planing to build regens, the three part series by Bruce Vaughan N5RQ (a silent key) starting with the December 2001 issue of Electric Radio should be considered a must read. He provides an excellent presentation of theoretical and practical information culminating in a very high performance but simple regen set. In the process he builds (and provides details of the experience) in building multiple variants of this same basic set. He was an excellent writer and a true gentleman and scholar who also wrote some interesting books. Several years prior to his death he had a question about an old QST article and I sent him a set of the QST CD-Roms from the early years and that started a lengthy correspondence between us. He is one of several authors who makes buying the complete run of older ER issues a very worthwhile purchase.

I am tied up today doing Christmas parade photography followed by a Christmas gathering tonight but I will try to find time this weekend to delve into my old QST CD collection to grab that article.

And thanks again Rob for providing those interesting article references, I will look those up later because some of them are not familiar. QST from the beginning through the mid-60s is fascinating reading for anyone interested in vintage radio and the pre-war years through the mid-fifties are particularly good.

Rodger WQ9E


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Companion Receiver For Pine board Project (Bob Heil vers
PostPosted: Dec Sun 09, 2018 2:24 am 
Member

Joined: Dec Sun 14, 2008 3:33 pm
Posts: 754
Location: Tokyo
OK, Rodger, how about this collection of National regen articles, including James Millen?

http://www.antiqueradios.org/gazette/SWevol.htm

Slide down to 'An Analysis of AC Operated SW Receiver Design'.

Btw, I have tried using a preselector with some of my regens to improve the AM sensitivity. Of course, it works but I didn't care for the interaction between the preselector tuning and the detector regeneration level. Isolating the detector with a grounded grid RF stage did not eliminate the problem. I ended up preferring to omit the preselector and run the detector in oscillation mode to find weak AM stations and zero-beating them to listen. That also fits the 'listen to the world with a fistful of parts' narrative that I like so much. So I'm not sold on the tuned RF stage ahead of the detector. That said, I've never operated a premium regen like the RAK or RAL which might cause me to change my opinion. And to the OP, I have to admit I have no idea what it would be like to try to make QSOs in 2018 with a simple pine board AM tx and a regen. But I am rooting for you.

Rodger, that link I included has acceptable scans of most of pre-1942 QST. No need to dig out the ARRL CD-ROM.

Rob


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Companion Receiver For Pine board Project (Bob Heil vers
PostPosted: Dec Sun 09, 2018 5:57 am 
Member

Joined: May Wed 06, 2009 7:01 pm
Posts: 804
I believe Rodger may be referring to " Rationalizing The Autodyne" by George Grammer in QST Jan 1933. I built a later QST / ARRL Handbook design that was definitely not up to Grammer's desired outcomes but fun nevertheless.
https://people.ohio.edu/postr/bapix/30sRegen.htm

In terms of performance, this one is the best home-brew regens I have experienced. Ugly but works exceptionally well.
https://people.ohio.edu/postr/bapix/Regen_HB.htm

-- Rich


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Companion Receiver For Pine board Project (Bob Heil vers
PostPosted: Dec Sun 09, 2018 8:58 pm 
Member

Joined: Nov Wed 14, 2012 11:29 pm
Posts: 292
Location: Florissant, Mo 63033
Thanks very much for all the great feedback. Tons of great and new (to me) info to pour over for the next few weeks!

The plan for now is to build the KE3IJ Jfet first, due to expense and the other two BCB Regens of his that I built worked so well. Then build a tube Regen. Attempting in the process to maximize usability on 40 A.M phone. It will be a fun challenge if nothing else!

Due to a large recent and unexpected expense, my wife and I are on a shoestring budget for a while, so I've got to keep the expense down as low as possible. The only thing I'm going to splurge on is one of these. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Precision-Tuning-Vernier-Dial-Control-Knob-Calibrated-0-100-Velvet-Ham-Radio/272481514809?epid=1928715576&hash=item3f7129f539:g:EG8AAOSw-0xYTGId:rk:4:pf:0

So in keeping with the previous mentions of building it solid, I've begun with a Project Box. The housing is an old Camera Box. I cut the front panel from an old aluminum cookie sheet found at Goodwill. It's nice and stiff.

Attachment:
20181209_115808.jpg
20181209_115808.jpg [ 28.4 KiB | Viewed 126 times ]


Attachment:
20181209_115905.jpg
20181209_115905.jpg [ 26.15 KiB | Viewed 126 times ]


Also...what the heck are these called? Binding posts?

Attachment:
20181209_105706.jpg
20181209_105706.jpg [ 16.95 KiB | Viewed 126 times ]


I'm going to need a bunch of them, but don't know what keyword to search for.

_________________
KD0UYH


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Companion Receiver For Pine board Project (Bob Heil vers
PostPosted: Dec Sun 09, 2018 9:07 pm 
Member

Joined: Apr Thu 11, 2013 11:03 pm
Posts: 464
Location: 649 Lacy Wilkerson Rd Roxboro, NC 27574
Terminal strip.

_________________
Joel Walker


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Companion Receiver For Pine board Project (Bob Heil vers
PostPosted: Dec Mon 10, 2018 12:35 am 
Member

Joined: Dec Sun 14, 2008 3:33 pm
Posts: 754
Location: Tokyo
https://archive.org/details/TheImpoveri ... 2/page/n43

This has details on how to build a reduction drive. Take a look, it should give you some ideas.

This series, The Impoverished Radio Experimenter, has a lot of practical information and suggestions on building radios, in particular regenerative. It's out of print but you can view the 6 issues here:

https://archive.org/search.php?query=im ... perimenter

Rob


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Companion Receiver For Pine board Project (Bob Heil vers
PostPosted: Dec Mon 10, 2018 2:12 am 
Member

Joined: Nov Wed 14, 2012 11:29 pm
Posts: 292
Location: Florissant, Mo 63033
Wow! That does give me ideas! Thanks for the great link!

_________________
KD0UYH


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Companion Receiver For Pine board Project (Bob Heil vers
PostPosted: Dec Tue 11, 2018 7:45 pm 
Member

Joined: Nov Wed 14, 2012 11:29 pm
Posts: 292
Location: Florissant, Mo 63033
While waiting on some bits and bobs from ebay, I've been going thru the info everyone has posted. The Impoverished Radio Experimenter has description and plans for grid dip meters. I've never used one. Would it be useful/sensible to build one into a receiver?

My understanding is that it's basically an adjustable oscillator that is inductively bound to the tank circuit and sucks out some energy when on the same frequency. When it does this the meter dips. Could this be built into a regen as a frequency indicator of sorts? Could the frequencies be marked on it's dial so that when the meter dips you would then read the frequency off the dial?

Sorry if this is a dumb question :oops:

Also; Whats the etiquette here? Do I need to start a build thread in the Homebrew section?...or keep it here?

_________________
KD0UYH


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Companion Receiver For Pine board Project (Bob Heil vers
PostPosted: Dec Tue 11, 2018 10:05 pm 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 13075
Location: S. Dartmouth MA 02748-1225 USA
...The Impoverished Radio Experimenter has description and plans for grid dip meters. I've never used one. Would it be useful/sensible to build one into a receiver?

Also best to pick-up a used one, much accurate design done...

No, best to be sure that the controls do not interact such the main tuning does not shift, then use a 1-100 dial...

Also; Whats the etiquette here? Do I need to start a build thread in the Homebrew section?...or keep it here?

Start a new topic here: Homebrew Radios and Equipment

_________________
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
"Gandhi"


Top
 Profile  
 
Post New Topic Post Reply  [ 21 posts ]  Moderator: Sandy Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests



Search for:
Jump to:  
























Privacy Policy :: Powered by phpBB