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 Post subject: Re: Philco 48-1000 Extreme Cabinet Restoration
PostPosted: Apr Wed 19, 2017 5:35 pm 
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Joined: Jan Sat 31, 2015 10:06 pm
Posts: 386
Grain Filler question - I am going to use grain filler on the cabinet. I'll be practicing on the board first. Is this sequence a good one:
- stain the wood - minwax red mahogany (as already on the test board)
- spray with clear gloss lacquer, to seal the wood and protect it from being colored by the grain filler
- apply grain filler - as many times as needed to fill all pores (likely Mohawk natural, but could be Mohawk medium walnut if the natural is not dark enough)
- apply more stain - to stain the filler, esp. if I use the natural. This should not affect the already stained mahogany veneer as it is sealed by the gloss lacquer, right?
- begin the finish gloss lacquer coats
Sound good?


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 Post subject: Re: Philco 48-1000 Extreme Cabinet Restoration
PostPosted: Apr Sat 22, 2017 8:48 pm 
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Joined: Jan Sat 31, 2015 10:06 pm
Posts: 386
I wish I'd read "apply the glue to the substrate only, not the veneer" beforehand. In any event I got it flattened out, rolled and clamped. We'll see if it worked out tomorrow. In the top photo you can see the 1/16 maple veneer, which I glued over the original planks, already dried and in place. The 1/32 mahogany veneer is going on over the maple.


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Curled Venner.jpg
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Flattened Veneer.jpg
Flattened Veneer.jpg [ 175.8 KiB | Viewed 1750 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Philco 48-1000 Extreme Cabinet Restoration
PostPosted: Apr Sun 23, 2017 8:37 am 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 2467
Location: England
Its hard for me to comment specifically on your finishing approach as I don't do all the steps that many US restorers do. I prep the veneer (sand , fill wounds etc) and then grain fill (more than once, depends on the wood) with already darkened filler (thinned with stain). I'm not sure that the filler I use will absorb stain well once dry so I would check yours out first. Then its flat out and then I may use (most likely) a thinned stain wash and see how it looks. Possibly if not dark enough it may get another stain coat.

Then I would use lacquer and depending on what I want use oil paint (artists oil paint method) and that's it. I don't use sealers or shellac washes and have been told off' :) for that. The posters could well be right but I had a problem once using Sanding Sealer and so have always kept the mix of layers to minium and stick with what I have found to work before.

The point of sealing before using dark grain filler is that it could muddy the surrounding veneer and you end up, on a vey light cabinet, with it being too dark. For me it always gets sanded off, although a little darkening of the surroundings may happen, but I'm yet to have this as a problem. In your case with such a dark result this would be no problem at all.

Here's a cabinet finished as above and its come out spot on the colour I wanted and no sealer used between wood prep and grain filling. Some might say "but thats not a really light cabinet anyway" so I may try the sealer coat method some time if I need to. I can understand the theory.

Attachment:
Cabinet.jpg
Cabinet.jpg [ 140.01 KiB | Viewed 1740 times ]


Gary


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 Post subject: Re: Philco 48-1000 Extreme Cabinet Restoration
PostPosted: Apr Mon 24, 2017 1:10 am 
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Joined: Jan Sat 31, 2015 10:06 pm
Posts: 386
Thanks Gary. I'll keep all that in mind. Beautiful work on that cabinet.


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 Post subject: Re: Philco 48-1000 Extreme Cabinet Restoration
PostPosted: Apr Tue 25, 2017 5:51 pm 
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Joined: Mar Sun 19, 2017 11:52 pm
Posts: 132
Location: Memphis, TN
Radio Fixer wrote:
Here's a cabinet finished as above and its come out spot on the colour I wanted.
Gary


OK, I'll bite. What are we looking at in that photo?

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GE J-64 first restore underway. GE J-105 awaits.


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 Post subject: Re: Philco 48-1000 Extreme Cabinet Restoration
PostPosted: Apr Wed 26, 2017 7:59 am 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 2467
Location: England
Its a German Philips D57 from around 38 and an excellent performer. Playing it for breakfast listening at the moment. It has actually had a second refinish as I didn't use Mohawk Tone Toner for the black top and it got fine cracks. Now it is is perfect and I'm thrilled with it.

More here if you want a read:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=301899

Gary


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 Post subject: Re: Philco 48-1000 Extreme Cabinet Restoration
PostPosted: May Thu 04, 2017 1:58 pm 
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Joined: Jan Sat 31, 2015 10:06 pm
Posts: 386
The other day I stained the TV. After much reading I decided not to use wood conditioner - the effect seemed like it would be minor on Mahogany. I put on MinWax Red Mahogany for a minute or three and wiped it off.

The results are pretty good. The new veneer looks great, and the old wood, especially the remaining side of old veneer, with such an interesting grain pattern, looks good.

There are some interesting aspects though. For starters it is a bit darker than I'd thought it would be, but it's still a great color and will finish up nicely I think. More interesting are the patterns that have turned up in the old wood. They are like tiger stripes and blotches. They are not leftover old finish, they seem to be either in the grain of the wood, or perhaps the result of how it was originally milled. I looked back at older photos of the set and whether or not these were visible on the original finish I can't tell - the finish was too shot. Some of the reference photos of these sets do show a sort of blotchy finish, though. The photos below highlight the effects - they are not quite as stark when viewed with the naked eye.

My plan was to put a little local stain on the veneer patches (see the corners on top), as they are lighter than the surrounding old wood. Then put on a coat of clear lacquer, grain fill, then perhaps stain again if the grain filler is too light. Because of the underlying lacquer it would darken only the filler, but not the veneer itself. But I'm wondering now if I should attempt to de-blotch the thing. Local application of stain? Glaze? Toned lacquer (I have a can of Colortone vintage amber)?
What would you suggest?


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File comment: Point of no return coming up.
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File comment: In a poorly lit garage, looks a bit darker than it actually is.
Just after stain 1.jpg
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initial stain 1.jpg
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Initial stain 14.jpg
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 Post subject: Re: Philco 48-1000 Extreme Cabinet Restoration
PostPosted: May Fri 19, 2017 11:30 pm 
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Joined: Jan Sat 31, 2015 10:06 pm
Posts: 386
After a good coat (3 passes total, lighter to heavier) of Deft Sanding Sealer, a week's dry time, and some light sanding, it was time for the grain filler. I used Mohawk Mahogany. It was thick - somewhere between pancake batter and frosting. And that was after much stirring and mixing.
The new veneer sections took a couple of applications, the original wood only one. Perhaps the pores were pretty well filled with old finish and such already. After rubbing it in and scraping it off, and later a wipe with mineral-spirits-soaked paper towels, the surfaces look nice and smooth.


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Grain filler - what a mess.jpg
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 Post subject: Re: Philco 48-1000 Extreme Cabinet Restoration
PostPosted: May Tue 23, 2017 5:25 pm 
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Joined: Jan Sat 31, 2015 10:06 pm
Posts: 386
I've experimented with the decals on my test board. The decals from Radio Daze are very good, and on very thin decal material. I cut a triangle of clear off the sheet, dunked it in water, and put it onto the test board. I blotted off the extra water. I used Micro Sol, like I do with decals on the model cars I build, and the results are amazing. I left the left half as is, and put Micro Sol on the right half. As you can see, the right half of the triangle decal is invisible on the wood. If you don't know about Micro Sol, you can get it at Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/Micro-Setting-Solution-Microscale-Industries/dp/B0006O9K5Q/ref=sr_1_1?s=toys-and-games&ie=UTF8&qid=1495556160&sr=1-1&keywords=micro+sol


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Micro Sol Test.jpg
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 Post subject: Re: Philco 48-1000 Extreme Cabinet Restoration
PostPosted: May Tue 23, 2017 5:39 pm 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 2467
Location: England
How does Micro Sol like cellulose lacquer over it?

thanks Gary


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 Post subject: Re: Philco 48-1000 Extreme Cabinet Restoration
PostPosted: Jun Fri 02, 2017 2:28 am 
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Joined: Jan Sat 31, 2015 10:06 pm
Posts: 386
Radio Fixer - I did not know how Micro Sol would work with the lacquer, so I tried it out on my test board. I'm using Minwax spray-can gloss, btw. As you can see in the first picture below, the lacquer made the decal, including the left half, the one without Micro Sol, and that was very visible in previous photos, completely transparent. At this point I was thinking yay the lacquer doesn't hurt the decal, it helps it. Then I wondered if it was just dissolving the decal and actually destroying it, and I just couldn't tell because it was transparent. So I cut out one of decals with text from the sheet (the sheet includes three full sets, so I have plenty to test with) and put it onto my test board. I did not use Micro Sol. Dry, as with the left-hand portion of my previous test, the decal's transparent parts were visible - whitish and filmy. When it dried I sprayed some minwax clear on it. As you can see, it came out perfect. The clear substrate around the text completely disappears with the lacquer. Maybe the lacquer actually dissolves the substrate but leaves the text. I don't know. But it seems that Radio Daze decals work extremely well with Minwax clear lacquer, no Micro Sol required.


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File comment: My clear test decal is completely invisible.
Decal under lacquer.jpg
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File comment: No MicroSol, decal covered in Minwax clear lacquer. Perfect.
Perfect Decal.jpg
Perfect Decal.jpg [ 230.23 KiB | Viewed 1231 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Philco 48-1000 Extreme Cabinet Restoration
PostPosted: Jun Fri 02, 2017 2:42 am 
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Joined: Jan Sat 31, 2015 10:06 pm
Posts: 386
Quick update on the finishing.

To do the finishing, I need warm dry days so I can spray all the lacquer. There's the clear, then brown for the trim, black for the base, then more clear for the final finish. Lots of spraying to do. But all we've had here in Boston are cold wet days. For weeks. Very frustrating. I've not been able to make any progress on the cabinet.

Finally today, between thunderstorms, we had periods of 70 degrees, 55% humidity. I seized the opportunity to start putting on the clear lacquer. Here's what I did:
- three wet coats, about 10 or 15 minutes apart
- dry three hours
- rub down with 0000 steel wool
- sand out the few bigger bits with 400 grit sandpaper
- (...wait for thunderstorm to pass and humidity to come down...)
- three more wet coats

The pictures below were taken at this point, before more steel wool rubbing. That will happen tomorrow after it dries. There may be some blushing, but I'm not sure. That shouldn't be a problem at 70 degrees, 55% humidity, right? The grain of the wood is looking really nice, under the clear.

My plan is to do a third cycle - three wet coats, sand/rub - then do the paint and decals. Then at least three more cycles after that, for a total of 18 wet coats, sanded and rubbed at each 3.

--> Is that too many? Too few? Should I do paint/decals now after two cycles, doing more clear on top of that? Does it matter? So many things are "if you like it it's fine" - is this one of them?


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Final Gloss - 2-3.jpg
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Final Gloss - 2-5.jpg
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Final Gloss - 2-8.jpg
Final Gloss - 2-8.jpg [ 110.17 KiB | Viewed 1231 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Philco 48-1000 Extreme Cabinet Restoration
PostPosted: Jun Fri 02, 2017 9:34 am 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 2467
Location: England
Thanks fro the decal info.

That's an awful lot of lacquer !! and I'm dubious about the steel wool when the lacquer is barely hard; could leave fibres behind.

The problem with too much lacquer is it becomes unstable, it may look fine at first but later as all the layers dry out cracks are likely to appear. They can often just be fine hair lines, that multiply as time goes by, but it spoils the finish.

Long ago I e-mailed Mohawk and they reckoned 4 thou was the max thickness before instability. In a simple test by me, !0 wet coats on a piece of acrylic, using a micro-meter gave 3 thou.

I usually do the toning and spray lacquer over it as normally only one or two coats are needed. I would reckon 6 coats of Mohawk will be plenty. I only rub off the 'nibs' (dust particles) between coats with a fine paper. There wont be many as I spray in a clean 'tent' in the garage.

After two weeks then I may use #0000 steel wool on a block, covered in Beeswax for a great satin finish, if thats what I want. For a high shine finish then it would be pumice, beeswax etc.

Gary


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 Post subject: Re: Philco 48-1000 Extreme Cabinet Restoration
PostPosted: Jun Fri 02, 2017 1:52 pm 
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Joined: Jan Sat 31, 2015 10:06 pm
Posts: 386
I definitely want the lacquer to harden up properly. I want the TV to be done as properly as I can do it. Down the road some poor bastard needs to have something to restore in like 2135, you know?

Here (http://www.woodcentral.com/russ/finish11.shtml) is where I found info on the three-coats-then-rub method. I gave it a try and it worked well. The three coats meant I had good coverage. I'm spraying out on my driveway, and there is often a breeze, so it's not like I'm getting super even full-coverage coats on it. The steel wool didn't gum up - the lacquer had dried plenty in 3 hours. It also smoothed out the lacquer nicely. Sandpaper is much harsher except at extremely high grits, so I got away using it only for a few bigger bits of dust and crud. I blew the steel wool fibers off with a can of air, then a swiffer. I might use an old t-shirt in the future.

I think what I'll do is leave it at the two cycles, let the current lacquer dry fully, maybe a week. Would that be enough for 6 coats of lacquer to fully gas out and be all settled? Then skip the next cycle of lacquer I planned and go ahead and do the paint/decals. Then maybe only two more cycles.


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 Post subject: Re: Philco 48-1000 Extreme Cabinet Restoration
PostPosted: Jun Fri 09, 2017 9:50 pm 
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Joined: Jan Sat 31, 2015 10:06 pm
Posts: 386
I've completed the painting steps. The other day I tested the rustoleum lacquer black and gold paint on my test board, putting minwax gloss lacquer over both. There were no problems of any kind.
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Test Board Black-Gold.jpg
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I masked and painted the black base and black frame around the picture.
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Black Base 1.jpg
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Black Base Side.jpg
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After the black dried for a couple of days, I masked the frame off and painted the gold rim, again with Rustoleum lacquer. I used Tamiya brand masking tape - 3mm, 6mm and wider. The blue painters tape left adhesive on my test board, and I didn't want any gunk on the TV. I've used Tamiya tape for years on model cars - it's good tape, and excellent for this kind of detail work.
At this point the TV cabinet is looking pretty sharp.
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Gold Mask 2.jpg
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Gold Frame 1.jpg
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Gold Frame 2.jpg
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 Post subject: Re: Philco 48-1000 Extreme Cabinet Restoration
PostPosted: Jun Sat 10, 2017 8:44 am 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 2467
Location: England
"The other day I tested the rustoleum lacquer black and gold paint on my test board, putting minwax gloss lacquer over both. There were no problems of any kind."

Lets hope it stays this way. Mohawk over acrylic black spray paint turned into a maze of cracks after a couple of months for me. Bought Mohawk black Tone Toner and refinished with Mohawk lacquer. No problems since. Always wary of mixing types and makes of finishes.

As you say looking pretty good as far as I can tell from the pictures so far.

Gary


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 Post subject: Re: Philco 48-1000 Extreme Cabinet Restoration
PostPosted: Jun Sat 10, 2017 3:25 pm 
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Joined: Jan Sat 31, 2015 10:06 pm
Posts: 386
These are the Rustoleum products I used. I did research on lacquer-over-Rustoleum, and came up with many stories of cracking and such under hotter, lacquer finishes. However, I also came across statements that the Rustoleum lacquer products are true lacquers, and work just fine. So I'm not too worried about the black. The can of gold doesn't say what it is - does anyone know? If it's a problem, it is only the gold rim around the screen. Should that crack up one day, I suppose I could sand it smooth and paint gold model paint over it by hand.


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Rustoleum Paint Used.jpg
Rustoleum Paint Used.jpg [ 148.09 KiB | Viewed 1110 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Philco 48-1000 Extreme Cabinet Restoration
PostPosted: Jun Sun 11, 2017 4:27 am 
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Joined: Mar Sun 19, 2017 11:52 pm
Posts: 132
Location: Memphis, TN
Back to the glue and the Rockler syringe kit. In between uses, do you just leave the bellows full of glue? Do you remove the syringe and soak it in water, plugging the bellows with the little white cap? Or do you just leave the syringe on and snap on the clear tube?

The first time I used it, I cleaned it all out. Too big a PITA to do that every time.

_________________
GE J-64 first restore underway. GE J-105 awaits.


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 Post subject: Re: Philco 48-1000 Extreme Cabinet Restoration
PostPosted: Jun Sun 11, 2017 12:50 pm 
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Posts: 10547
Location: Long Island, N.Y.
It seems that gold grille was finished the same way as when you refinish the decorative feet on the 1928 Radiola 60. You first spray them gold and let that dry thoroughly, then you spray on semi-gloss black and gently wipe most of it off while it's wet leaving it just in the notches. With this will do is create depth to the piece. I did the process myself on my 60 and it comes out beautiful.


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 Post subject: Re: Philco 48-1000 Extreme Cabinet Restoration
PostPosted: Jun Sun 11, 2017 5:13 pm 
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Joined: Jan Sat 31, 2015 10:06 pm
Posts: 386
Budward - I left the bellows full between uses, making sure to put the cap on. When all the glue was used up I rinsed it and the nozzle out thoroughly with hot water. I had problems with glue drying in the nozzle - keep a needle or wire handy to poke through it. I've had some nozzles become too clogged to use. I'm not sure these are meant to last forever, at least for me. As they become unusable I'll just have to buy some more.

decojoe67 - I thought about using an acrylic wash to darken the crevices but haven't tried it. The black-over-gold-rub-off technique sounds interesting. Maybe I'll try it. I have semigloss black in lacquer or enamel. I'd worry about them harming the gold finish - I'm not even sure if the gold Rustoleum is enamel or lacquer or something else. On your Radiola, what kind of paints were you using?


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