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 Post subject: Re: How to Tell if a Filter Cap is Really Bad ????
PostPosted: Dec Wed 06, 2017 4:06 am 
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Leigh wrote:

It is NEVER a good idea to apply power to any set having its original caps.

- Leigh

Well now let's qualify that a bit; I would suggest "It is NEVER a good idea to apply AC power to any set having its original caps."

Ain't no problem doing it with battery powered radios.


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Last edited by fifties on Dec Wed 06, 2017 4:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: How to Tell if a Filter Cap is Really Bad ????
PostPosted: Dec Wed 06, 2017 4:11 am 
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fifties wrote:
Well now let's qualify that a bit; I would suggest "It is NEVER a good idea to apply AC power to any set having its original caps." Ain't no problem doing it with battery powered sets.

I've seen quite a few problems with OLD battery sets with bad caps.

We're not talking about relatively new radios.

This is the ANTIQUE Radio Forum.
ALL of my comments here are on that subject and presented in that context.

- Leigh

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 Post subject: Re: How to Tell if a Filter Cap is Really Bad ????
PostPosted: Dec Wed 06, 2017 4:26 am 
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Leigh wrote:
fifties wrote:
Well now let's qualify that a bit; I would suggest "It is NEVER a good idea to apply AC power to any set having its original caps." Ain't no problem doing it with battery powered sets.

I've seen quite a few problems with OLD battery sets with bad caps.

What sort of problems? Did operating it with a battery cause collateral damage to an unobtainable part?

Leigh wrote:
We're not talking about relatively new radios.

This is the ANTIQUE Radio Forum.
ALL of my comments here are on that subject and presented in that context.

- Leigh

The Motorola I displayed is from 1940...Is THAT old enough?

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 Post subject: Re: How to Tell if a Filter Cap is Really Bad ????
PostPosted: Dec Wed 06, 2017 4:47 am 
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Post subject: "How to Tell if a Filter Cap is Really Bad ???"

"Old" or "antique" wasn't mentioned.

and:

"I don't mean to take up so much space on an item that the simple answer is JUST REPLACE IT but curiosity has got the best of me. Is there a way to test a filter cap that by simple indications tests good but is performing badly".

For checking a "leaky" capacitor, I apply a D.C. voltage, up to the operating voltage of the circuit or, the voltage rating of the capacitor while monitoring the current to do so.

Charlie


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 Post subject: Re: How to Tell if a Filter Cap is Really Bad ????
PostPosted: Dec Wed 06, 2017 5:33 am 
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I'm NOT an AA5, Philco, or Zenith consumer product fan.

That said, I put a HV supply across the isolated main filter cap, near its rated WV, with a 10K resistor in series. Watch the current as I wind up the B+, if it continues to drop for a minute or two, I put the cap back in circuit. Next, snip out the bleeder, apply B+ to the entire radio, without it plugged in, and verify the total DC resistive paths to ground in the schematic, are close to the current being drawn. If OK, then I fire it up, and continue on. Voltage checks/charts are a good place to start.

Not the fastest path from "A" to "B", but lots quicker than a total swap out.

Except for a few recent instances, I don't engage in "shot gunning" to fix that which isn't Broken.

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 Post subject: Re: How to Tell if a Filter Cap is Really Bad ????
PostPosted: Dec Wed 06, 2017 6:11 am 
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Mikeinkcmo wrote:
Except for a few recent instances, I don't engage in "shot gunning" to fix that which isn't Broken.
Mike,

I certainly hope you understand the difference between HP test equipment, as you used, and consumer radios.

I too have large piles of HP gear that still work fine even though they're decades old.
The parts you find inside that gear have only passing resemblance to consumer parts.

- Leigh

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 Post subject: Re: How to Tell if a Filter Cap is Really Bad ????
PostPosted: Dec Wed 06, 2017 6:28 am 
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xwarp wrote:
Pbpix wrote:
xwarp wrote:
And if you think that testing caps that were going to be replaced is futile, then why would you have such an expensive piece of test equipment to test them if testing them was a waste of time?

Ah ha...That's exactly why I don't!
I do not have an expensive piece of equipment for testing them... for that exact reason. It would not make sense.

Years ago maybe, when capacitors were more expensive like back in the in the 30s or so ... It made more sense to find ways to test them because it might have made sense trying to salvage them.
But these days at a few cents or less then a $1 to replace them , any costly test equipment no longer makes sense.


Good for you, but your specific generalization about why people test old caps is out of line.

You are way off base.
I don't give a hoot how you or anyone else chooses to waste their time, nor am I passing judgement on your desire to spend your time or what you enjoy.
I couldn't care less.
Some how YOU took from my words that I was being critical of people who choose to test caps... but you are very wrong... lol
I don't care. I just feel it is a waste of time since you can't bring them back to like new anyway and in the end you still replace them. So why bother??
But...
I was making a statement in reply to Chtis108 who said that his opinion of WHY people do it.
He said:
" Some of us are curious why particular circuits and test instruments act the way they do"

So he was implying that people do it for educational purposes.

I had another line of reasoning.

I was countering his idea with my idea ...

Nothing in my post is critical of YOU or anyone. It is merely MY opinion of WHY people probably really do it.

And I think they are trying to save money just like those who save string, aluminum foil or paper towels.

I believe this more so as the reason rather than "educational" purposes.... mostly because after you tested one or two and got your education... it doesn't end there. These folks still test them.

If anything I said defines or describes you.. so be it. But I was not being critical... merely observational.

But if the reasons you like to do it are what I describe... have fun...
People who try to save string also do it because they enjoy it.
So enjoy your cap testing... good luck.

When you get a blow-out or a flat in an old bald tire... would you keep testing it or replace it?
See... an exercise in futility... but hey if that's what you enjoy... go ahead. :shock:

How about Milk. If you take a week-old carton of milk out of the fridge and you "test it " and it smells sour, do you put it back and hope it gets better? Then do you keep (testing) smelling it every day as a test for "educational" purposes?
Or would you be a realist and acknowledge that after a week it's NEVER going to get better?? lol

So... to me this is a form of logical futility. But that's just me.... :P

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 Post subject: Re: How to Tell if a Filter Cap is Really Bad ????
PostPosted: Dec Wed 06, 2017 1:33 pm 
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Quote:
was making a statement in reply to Chtis108 who said that his opinion of WHY people do it.
He said:
" Some of us are curious why particular circuits and test instruments act the way they do"

So he was implying that people do it for educational purposes.

I had another line of reasoning.

I was countering his idea with my idea ...


Normally I don't like to reference things outside the thread we are in. It isn't fair to newcomers who may not know the back story. But in this case the irony is worth an exception.

You think people in this day and age test capacitors that are 60 to 90 years old to see if they are still any good, out of a desire to save a few cents on a radio repair. Yet in other threads you have bragged about finding the cheapest no-brand, no-account capacitors possible anywhere on the internet. Unknown materials and manufacturing practices, untested, untraceable, and potentially more unreliable than the 70-year-old parts you are replacing! I buy name brand parts with real spec sheets which I download and read, from recognized distributors like Mouser, Allied, and DigiKey (in no particular order). I am spending a lot more per capacitor than you are, but you think I am being cheap!

Yeah, I know you are going to say you have never, ever had one of your new Chinalytics go bad, but you don't have a tester so how would you know? Big deal if a radio plays or not! Many of us have come across radios which make us scratch our heads because every tube and part is out of spec yet they still manage to work reasonably well.

As for what you do with old parts that are still good in your radios, it really depends on what you hope to accomplish. Some people just like changing parts and will replace every resistor and capacitor in an old radio without a second thought. The loss of originality and antique value, and any degradation of performance that may result are accepted. But it may well be the best course of action if the radio is being repaired for daily use, sold as "restored," or returned to a paying repair customer. However, there are those of us for whom the whole point of an antique radio is that it is an antique, in which case conserving as much of the original material as possible is also important.

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 Post subject: Re: How to Tell if a Filter Cap is Really Bad ????
PostPosted: Dec Wed 06, 2017 11:24 pm 
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Chris108 wrote:
Quote:
was making a statement in reply to Chtis108 who said that his opinion of WHY people do it.
He said:
" Some of us are curious why particular circuits and test instruments act the way they do"

So he was implying that people do it for educational purposes.

I had another line of reasoning.

I was countering his idea with my idea ...


Yet in other threads you have bragged about finding the cheapest no-brand, no-account capacitors possible anywhere on the internet. Unknown materials and manufacturing practices, untested, untraceable, and potentially more unreliable than the 70-year-old parts you are replacing! I buy name brand parts with real spec sheets which I download and read, from recognized distributors like Mouser, Allied, and DigiKey (in no particular order). I am spending a lot more per capacitor than you are, but you think I am being cheap!

.

Chris... I'm surprised at you.

Strange how you can infer things out thin air... lol

I have NEVER "bragged" about buying cheap parts. Nope. I have only ever presented the component prices I've found as being a newsworthy and noteworthy place to let others see what seems to be so surprisingly low cost.
But I do it mostly as a kindness to you guys to let you know where I found something... but as far as the price only. I never go out purposely seeking "cheap" stuff... but instead I look for the "right value" wherever it is... and if I find a shockingly low price that makes me wonder how the seller can possibly be making a profit... then I will present it to the rest of you guys as something of a puzzle or wonderment.
Now of course I do not want to overpay for anything ... but I'm never out there seeking cheap.

When you say the parts I buy on-line are:
"potentially more unreliable than the 70-year-old parts you are replacing!"

All I can say.. is that you are just engaging in silly stupid wild speculation from which you have no proof or facts. How ridiculous to make a dumb unfounded statement like that... lol.

Are you trying to indicate that products made in countries outside the US are not made to the same standards as the US?

Obviously you know little to nothing about the ISO 9000 and 9001 certification standards.

If you did you'd be embarrassed to be making such bold, and obviously unfounded comments, because if you did your homework in that area you would know that as of 2014 of all the top ten countries in the manufacturing world today, CHINA ranks number one on the list for ISO-9001 compliance, with 342,800 certificates and the United states, by comparison, only ranks way down at number 8 with only 33,008 certificates.
So you can see by these FACTS that China offers over 10 times MORE manufacturers that are in compliance with ISO-9001 standards than we have here in the US..
REF: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_9000

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Last edited by Pbpix on Dec Wed 06, 2017 11:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How to Tell if a Filter Cap is Really Bad ????
PostPosted: Dec Wed 06, 2017 11:35 pm 
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Pbpix wrote:
as of 2014 of all the top ten countries in the manufacturing world today, CHINA ranks number one on the list for ISO-9001 compliance, with 342,800 certificates and the United states, by comparison, only ranks way down at number 8 with only 33,008 certificates.
REF: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_9000

I think this would speak more to the fact that China manufactures 10x as much as we do of these components, rather than being "more compliant".

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 Post subject: Re: How to Tell if a Filter Cap is Really Bad ????
PostPosted: Dec Wed 06, 2017 11:41 pm 
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Compliance means just that. In COMPLIANCE.
It's just a statistically simple fact that China has over ten times more manufacturing companies that are "in compliance with ISO-9001 standards" than the US has.
They have ten times more ISO-9001 accreditation certificates issued to their manufacturers than the US.
Can't say it any simpler than that.

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Last edited by Pbpix on Dec Wed 06, 2017 11:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How to Tell if a Filter Cap is Really Bad ????
PostPosted: Dec Wed 06, 2017 11:44 pm 
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And how many products from China are non-compliant, counterfeit, and junk.

I will stick with components from major US suppliers.

Dave


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 Post subject: Re: How to Tell if a Filter Cap is Really Bad ????
PostPosted: Dec Wed 06, 2017 11:48 pm 
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easyrider8 wrote:
And how many products from China are non-compliant, counterfeit, and junk.

I will stick with components from major US suppliers.

Dave

Well Dave:
You don't know unless you actually do some testing and then present your findings. Right?
And so ... Without such honest factual evidence, it's pure wild speculation and bias influencing your decisions. isn't it?.

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 Post subject: Re: How to Tell if a Filter Cap is Really Bad ????
PostPosted: Dec Wed 06, 2017 11:52 pm 
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Pbpix wrote:
Compliance means just that. In COMPLIANCE.
It's just a statistically simple fact that China has over ten times more manufacturing companies that are "in compliance with ISO-9001 standards" than the US has.
They have ten times more ISO-9001 accreditation certificates issued to their manufacturers than the US.
Can't say it any simpler than that.

Right.
They have 10x more compliance ctf's because they have 10x more manufacturers. Doesn't mean that their compliance rate is any higher than ours.

And Dave's point is well taken; they are known for producing inferior quality knockoffs, as well. I don't think he has to provide evidence; it's a well known fact.

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 Post subject: Re: How to Tell if a Filter Cap is Really Bad ????
PostPosted: Dec Wed 06, 2017 11:58 pm 
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I go by logic in what I do with old parts. That's me.
But I do not pass judgement on how anyone chooses to spend their time checking old capacitors which cannot return them to "new". (like spilled milk, you can't make it better)
But... hey, if you like doing that.. who cares... lol
Enjoy it.

Its just not for me because it simply fails the logic test.

And ...As I said earlier. There are lots of people who enjoy saving string too.

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 Post subject: Re: How to Tell if a Filter Cap is Really Bad ????
PostPosted: Dec Thu 07, 2017 12:59 am 
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Pbpix wrote:
So you can see by these FACTS that China offers over 10 times MORE manufacturers that are in compliance with ISO-9001 standards than we have here in the US...

But are those chinese companies the ones producing and shipping the no-name anonymous caps that some prefer?

I doubt it.

Certainly they have the ability to produce high-quality parts, as their space program demonstrates.
But those parts don't go into the consumer pipe.

Like others have stated (above), I too buy only from reputable franchised distributors like Mouser.
And I do not buy parts made in certain countries if I can avoid it, regardless of cost.

- Leigh

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 Post subject: Re: How to Tell if a Filter Cap is Really Bad ????
PostPosted: Dec Thu 07, 2017 1:22 am 
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Quote:
When you say the parts I buy on-line are:
"potentially more unreliable than the 70-year-old parts you are replacing!"

All I can say.. is that you are just engaging in silly stupid wild speculation from which you have no proof or facts. How ridiculous to make a dumb unfounded statement like that... lol.

Are you trying to indicate that products made in countries outside the US are not made to the same standards as the US?

Obviously you know little to nothing about the ISO 9000 and 9001 certification standards.

If you did you'd be embarrassed to be making such bold, and obviously unfounded comments, because if you did your homework in that area you would know that as of 2014 of all the top ten countries in the manufacturing world today, CHINA ranks number one on the list for ISO-9001 compliance, with 342,800 certificates and the United states, by comparison, only ranks way down at number 8 with only 33,008 certificates.
So you can see by these FACTS that China offers over 10 times MORE manufacturers that are in compliance with ISO-9001 standards than we have here in the US..


You expect anybody to believe that you look up the ISO-9001 certificates of capacitor factories in China before you order their products? Even if a factory has ISO-9001 certification, it does not mean that everything they make meets the same quality control standards, or their rejects don't end up in other markets.

As for the rest of your argument, just do a google on "counterfeit electronic components." You'll get 354,000 hits in half a second. It's a huge topic with lots of articles about the problems being caused and trying to get them under control, ads from companies that specialize in detecting fakes, teaching you how to recognize them, and so on. If every major electronics manufacturer and parts distributor, along with DARPA, JPL, NASA, and the Department of Defense is having trouble telling genuine parts from fakes, what are the odds an antique radio collector buying gray market parts online won't get stuck with substandard, unpredictable, and unreliable stuff from time to time?

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 Post subject: Re: How to Tell if a Filter Cap is Really Bad ????
PostPosted: Dec Thu 07, 2017 2:46 am 
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You guys are poo pooing Yellow Caps. But have either of you actually done ANY testing large or small?
No... right?
lol

And no i do not check to see which capacitor makers meets ISO standards in China and elsewhere because I allow my ACTUAL hands on personal experience decide. I'll bet you also do not check to see which people in the US meet these standards before you buy capacitors either.
.. though I will grant you that if you ONLY buy from Mouser etc you'll stand a good chance their stuff comes from iso standards firms.

Now also ... I like you am only restoring AA5 radios or audio amps... not aircraft or mil-spec contracts for our space programs.

So... again you see, logic rules the day.
... I simply apply some practical sensible or empirical evidence and use-based logic.

As for chips:
I too only buy chips from authorized distributors.. but only because of counterfeit sellers all over the world and in the US, on the internet. Certainly not just China.
I cannot test chips very well if at all. ... and authorized distributor and re sellers like Rochester electronics have fairly priced parts anyway. So again here it's a logical choice.

But I didn't bring up new part sellers. You guys keep muddying the waters with non relevant stuff that has no direct relation to the thread topic..

==>>SUBJECT:
This thread is supposed to be about testing and checking OLD filter caps. Right?
... And I don't care if you like to do that. Go ahead.
It makes no sense for me to do it however because testing 50yo caps will never restore them to anything like new or even close to any newly manufactured cap made anywhere today.

So if testing old caps cannot restore them to new.. I ask then, ... why waste time doing it??
And again.... just like the spilled milk example. Why keep testing if it is spilled.. lol
.. No matter what you do ..you can't salvage it.
Any realist has enough logic to comprehend this.

If you guys are so concerned with good quality...
Why fool around even testing old-technology made crappy 50-yo caps. Even if you can find one that isn't failing.. you know it would not be as good as any newly made e-cap from anywhere in the world.
So again.. it's a logic failure.

So.. again I REPEAT .. if you enjoy doing it...( like saving string) ...then good for you.
But as for me... it simply FAILS the logic test.

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 Post subject: Re: How to Tell if a Filter Cap is Really Bad ????
PostPosted: Dec Thu 07, 2017 3:41 am 
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Pbpix wrote:
You guys are poo pooing Yellow Caps.
But have either of you actually done ANY testing large or small?
Any such tests would be completely meaningless.

The "yellow caps" to which you refer are anonymous, with no maker or series identification.

So if you test five batches, they might all be identical, or all different.

What have you learned, and how would it apply to the next cap you picked up?

- Leigh

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 Post subject: Re: How to Tell if a Filter Cap is Really Bad ????
PostPosted: Dec Thu 07, 2017 3:47 am 
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Leigh wrote:
Pbpix wrote:
You guys are poo pooing Yellow Caps.
But have either of you actually done ANY testing large or small?
Any such tests would be completely meaningless.

The "yellow caps" to which you refer are anonymous, with no maker or series identification.

So if you test five batches, they might all be identical, or all different.

What have you learned, and how would it apply to the next cap you picked up?

- Leigh

You'd most likely actually learn that by testing them you cannot find any degree of failures to speak of ... and that no matter how often you test them they continue to show good results.

I, more logically, do this by testing them in casual use on AA5 radios that get little use anyway.
so.. it passes the logic test.

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