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 Post subject: Re: Very Old Wurlitzer
PostPosted: Apr Sat 22, 2017 8:04 pm 
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Joined: Nov Tue 03, 2015 9:43 pm
Posts: 118
Location: Illinois, 60565
Greetings:

Both Matt's Basement and Startgroove make excellent points regarding trademarks which were basically unregulated prior to 1929. Aside of sales brochures and advertisements there is another area that provides solid information on the business health of radio companies from the past.

Business newspapers and magazines, especially 'targeted' magazines like McGraw-Hill "Electronics". Here you can get a flavor of the health of the radio industry and see who is going up or down in true sales.

I have read the late 1920s stock offerings of All American and Mohawk, but did not make copies or scans. First, there was the All American and Mohawk merger reported in April 1928 followed in six months by All American Mohawk and Wurlitzer merge. The stock picture becomes clearer that Wurlitzer was the financially strongest of the three at the time.

Wurlitzer was also a cabinet supplier who may have unfortunately 'inherited' All American Mohawk because of the amounts that may have been past due for cabinets shipped.

Add to the new stock offerings issued just before any merger and one can infer that the new stock sale was to generate cash flow to pay current debt. Items like the new All American Mohawk factory is money that a bank(s) puts up. One only has to return to the business culture of the 1920s to read some business shenanigans that are not possible today.

Two other factors at the time were killing the stability of the radio business. These were the continued license litigations and vacuum tubes. The litigation was primarily around the definition of what was a kit versus a compete radio.

The new tube introductions were more cost problematic with the introduction of a reliable production triode, the 227, the 224 and a cost effective superheterodyne convertor. New tubes were introduced about every 2 years and the public wanted the latest design before parting with their money.

The new tube releases were faster than inventory control could handle. During mid model production a company may have had to switch from the 227 tube over to the 224 "Screen Grid". The stock of 227 tubes went from value to scrap value almost overnight. This kills profit and any business.

My observation is that Mohawk was well managed while the main supplier to Mohawk, All American, was not. Mohawk had to either lose money because of or absorb All American. So they merged. Much like the small auto manufacturers after WWII if you're familiar with those outcomes. The All American and Mohawk merger was short lived and in six months Wurlitzer found itself owning a big radio division.

That's how I see it.

The one thing that Wurlitzer seemed to do based on the timing of the merger was to kill off all the Native American names that Mohawk had begun to promote less than 2 years earlier. Models with names like Iroquois, Seminole, Navajo, Pawnee and Hiawatha were simply replaced by "Lyric" in late 1928. Chieftain seemed to be a generic Mohawk radio for any radio retailers.

John


Attachments:
Radio Engineering 1928 April All American and Mohawk merge Page 51.pdf [118.46 KiB]
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All American Mohawk and Wurlitzer in 29Oct1928 Resize.jpg
All American Mohawk and Wurlitzer in 29Oct1928 Resize.jpg [ 249.5 KiB | Viewed 2761 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Very Old Wurlitzer
PostPosted: Apr Sat 22, 2017 9:31 pm 
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Joined: Mar Mon 05, 2012 6:35 am
Posts: 420
Location: Chicagoland, 60194
What parts did All American supply to Mohawk?
I have the three versions of the '27 model...the one with the arrowhead shaped escutcheon built into a drawer. That model was available in battery, Kellogg AC, and later RCA AC. Must have kept them busy. I think Frankel was from NY before coming to Chicago. All the Mohawk Indian names I believe originated in NY. Maybe Frankel's descendants know something? Mohawk isn't mentioned in his obituary. I think the radio business was a short, but profitable time in his life. d. May29, 1967

Image

Matt


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 Post subject: Re: Very Old Wurlitzer
PostPosted: Apr Sat 22, 2017 10:06 pm 
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Joined: Mar Mon 05, 2012 6:35 am
Posts: 420
Location: Chicagoland, 60194
Something else I just noticed. In the Wurlitzer catalog I posted everywhere "Wurlitzer" or "Professional" is printed the words, "REG. U.S. PAT OFC" appear immediately below. Wherever "Lyric" is printed there is no such trademark notation. Could it be that Wurlitzer failed to get the name "Lyric" trademarked? Maybe the Swedes are smarter than the Germans? :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Very Old Wurlitzer
PostPosted: Apr Sun 23, 2017 5:22 pm 
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Joined: Nov Tue 03, 2015 9:43 pm
Posts: 118
Location: Illinois, 60565
Greetings to Matt and all:

I believe but do not have the inventory data to show that Mohawk and All American collaborated on components, mostly the All American audio transformers. Transformers being expensive at the time. I make this as an observation from the Mohawk audio transformer case housings, and the cost to make a unique stamped metal case for a customer versus leaving the name All American off. One sees unmarked cases a lot in power transformers except for the replacements, and I think that the same no identification policy took place on audio transformers as well.

I look for matching up power transformer and tube socket openings / locations to identify what manufacturer made what circuit design. This has been very helpful in identifying many of the Truetone and Knight (Allied Radio) chassis that seemed to have been purchased from many, many sources.

No radio manufacture would have changed the chassis stamping locations and/or retrained a soldering production line for an order of custom named radios. Especially for no cost. In some cases the location of the power transformers must have been based on handling for cabinet installations. A center power transformer being easier to balance than a transformer located in the front left or right corner. Cost was the driver in the late 20s and early 30s.

Also it helps me to understand that the chief or lead radio engineer of the later 1920s usually had personal trademarks that showed up in how a chassis was arranged. Some circuitry is lined up in progression while other circuits are cleverly arranged by the engineer(s) to be as cost effective as possible. This was an amazing feat considering how quickly the tube and circuit designs were changing at the time.

As for Frankel, I respect the individual as a business savvy manager but that is all. With All American / Mohawk / Wurlitzer he knew how to ride the wave and exactly when to 'get-out-of-Dodge' as many top level managers did in the 1930s. Unfortunately, the presidents, treasurers and sales managers of the 1930s all seem to be shown in a positive historical light, while jobs were lost and the businesses were sold to each other for scrap.

I have a question for you.

Do any of the three Mohawk radios that you have use 7 tubes that are arranged as shown the photo below?

The chassis has no markings but has the same layout as the Mohawk Navajo. The seventh tube is the 280 (80) power supply tube. The chassis is painted flat black like an early RCA but without the Navajo features like the antenna and ground Fahnestock connections. The circuit is very, very close to a Shamrock 28-29 with the four 227s and two 171 (71A) in Push-Pull but the layout is not Shamrock.

IF, big if. I electrically substitute (on paper) the three 227 tubes on the left in the photo with 24As with one 227 (27) as the AF then I can find many circuits to choose from. Except that the actual circuitry is designed for 227 tubes and not 24As. This chassis must have been right on the cusp of 227s and the new Screen Grid. Perhaps the last of the 227s.

The photo is looking from the front to the rear. The left rectangular cover has internal three metal compartments to completely enclose the TRF coils. While the right cover encloses the power and two audio transformers. It appears that the same paint was used for the chassis as well as the covers.

The chassis does not seem to be a kit.

This has been a tough chassis for me to identify. I'm looking for any clue that will send me off in a different direction.

Sincerely,

John


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b13 800.jpg
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 Post subject: Re: Very Old Wurlitzer
PostPosted: Apr Tue 25, 2017 5:29 am 
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Joined: Mar Mon 05, 2012 6:35 am
Posts: 420
Location: Chicagoland, 60194
Heterodyne in Illinois wrote:
I have a question for you.

Do any of the three Mohawk radios that you have use 7 tubes that are arranged as shown the photo below?

The chassis has no markings but has the same layout as the Mohawk Navajo. The seventh tube is the 280 (80) power supply tube. The chassis is painted flat black like an early RCA but without the Navajo features like the antenna and ground Fahnestock connections. The circuit is very, very close to a Shamrock 28-29 with the four 227s and two 171 (71A) in Push-Pull but the layout is not Shamrock.

IF, big if. I electrically substitute (on paper) the three 227 tubes on the left in the photo with 24As with one 227 (27) as the AF then I can find many circuits to choose from. Except that the actual circuitry is designed for 227 tubes and not 24As. This chassis must have been right on the cusp of 227s and the new Screen Grid. Perhaps the last of the 227s.

The photo is looking from the front to the rear. The left rectangular cover has internal three metal compartments to completely enclose the TRF coils. While the right cover encloses the power and two audio transformers. It appears that the same paint was used for the chassis as well as the covers.

The chassis does not seem to be a kit.

This has been a tough chassis for me to identify. I'm looking for any clue that will send me off in a different direction.

Sincerely,

John


The 1st generation Mohawk (5tube slant front) used two Stromberg-Carlson audio interstage transformers. 2nd generation 6 tube 1926-27 models mounted open frame xfmrs on the underside of chassis. 3rd generation 1927-28 model was also 6-tube and very similar to 2nd generation, but was offered in battery, AC Kellogg, and later AC RCA. AFAIK all components for the 2nd and 3rd generation models were made in-house. There is no evidence anything was sourced from All-American. The 4th generation were born as Lyric All-American Mohawk model 60 series and 80 series (6tube and 8tube) introduced in 1929. They did NOT include the 80 rectifier in their tube count.

Your radio: No none of my Mohawk's have tubes arranged like yours. All Mohawk's that used that layout only mounted 6-tubes. Never 7. The condenser on your set is not a Mohawk. Possibly a Magnavox? Have you looked through RM.org images?

re: Frankel. He was certainly not an engineer so on this forum that is strike #1 and I get it. However he put together a team that included an excellent mechanical engineer in Paul Chamberlain, nabbed a top sales and marketing expert from Sears and lead a company from nowhere to the 6th largest radio company in the US with distribution in all states and Canada within three years of introduction of their first radio and created lots of new jobs in the process. The depression was the cause of most unemployment, not bad managers. Big consoles were a tough sell when everybody was broke. Had it not been for Wurlitzer both companies would have most likely joined the ash heaps of the depression.

Image

Image

Image
The Kellogg electric set as well as the rest of the 1927-28 Mohawk line was offered in Wurlitzer dress. Here's one from June 2002 Antique Radio Classified thanks to Wally Worth: http://www.antiqueradio.com/Jun02_Jukebox_Wurl.html

Image


Last edited by matt's basement on Apr Tue 25, 2017 2:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Very Old Wurlitzer
PostPosted: Apr Tue 25, 2017 5:41 am 
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Joined: Mar Mon 05, 2012 6:35 am
Posts: 420
Location: Chicagoland, 60194
Here's a couple more pics from a Nov 1926 Mohawk sales catalogue that I don't believe have been seen before.
The factory and general offices still exist...now a loft condominium called River Park. A fourth floor was added to the building and the street has been raised by several feet displacing the original ground floor display windows. The location of the water tower can still be seen under a small green hip roof.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Diversey+%26+Logan/@41.9312976,-87.6828052,127a,35y,321.92h,45t/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x880fd2893f60d829:0x5a80f736f2775eef!8m2!3d41.9321052!4d-87.6840168

Anybody recognize the Cabinet Plant? I've not been able to locate the address. The same picture is featured in both the 26-27 catalog and the 27-28 catalog, but I've found no other reference. Also the interior factory photo windows look more like they belong to the Cabinet Plant than the Factory & General Offices building.

Image
Image


Last edited by matt's basement on Apr Tue 25, 2017 8:08 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Very Old Wurlitzer
PostPosted: Apr Tue 25, 2017 6:10 am 
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Joined: Mar Mon 05, 2012 6:35 am
Posts: 420
Location: Chicagoland, 60194
I'm busy with the scanner tonight.

The first picture was taken in 1927 or 28 at Centlivre Park in Fort Wayne, Indiana. An air shipment of radios being delivered to The Fisher Bros Paper Co. How many 1920's radio manufacturers had a corporate plane?
Courtesy of Frank P., Jr. formerly of Fisher Bros and a radio collector.
Anyone know what model plane it is?

The second picture was taken May 24, 1927 as ground was broken for a factory addition. Mentioned in the 1927-28 Sales Catalogue, "This Unit No. 2 added to the present Mohawk Building will be built partly on a dock over the Chicago River adjoining the Mohawk Building and will give an additional space in round figures 26,800 sq. ft. making a total of 78,800 sq. ft. for the newly completed Mohawk Building."

Image

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Very Old Wurlitzer
PostPosted: Apr Tue 25, 2017 3:44 pm 
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Joined: Nov Tue 03, 2015 9:43 pm
Posts: 118
Location: Illinois, 60565
Greetings to Matt and all:

Thank you, Matt, for your detailed post, bringing me back in-line regarding Mohawk, and the use of any All American transformers. I have relied on poor visual observations for making that statement. I apologize if I was misleading anyone.

A friend who owns the 7 tube radio asked me to quote on electrically restoring the TRF chassis but only after I find out the manufacturing company. The pristine chassis and cabinet are of quality construction but completely void of any markings. It was two years ago when I thought that all I had to do was a simple search. (Please note: The radio owner turned the power on in 2015, not I.)

My first direction came from pg 20, "All-American Mohawk", from Volume 1 of Alan Douglas' 1988 book. This led me to RM dot Org, magazines and newspapers. Unfortunately none of those sources were able to match the 7 tube chassis arrangement with any manufacturer that used only 227 or 27 tubes in a TRF circuit. You may agree that the tube arrangement is unique for the radio year 1927-28.

I have found a lot of business / stock news on Newspapers dot Com about the All American / Mohawk / Wurlitzer mergers at the local library. I only noted the articles, and did not download any excerpts. I will return and download those documents because the timing and issuing of new stock(s) tells a slightly different merger story.

I will also find the time to take better quality, more detailed photos because the one that I attached is from using a 'no flash' cell phone. The radio is in protective storage and is not easily accessible for quick photos.

I think that once you see a close up of the 7 tube chassis tuning condenser, especially the rear, that you may agree that the tuning condenser is a close match with the "3rd Generation One-Dial 1927-28" condenser shown in your photo attachment.

I know what you mean about tube counts. In my searching I have noticed many models where the total tube count can be with or without the rectifier tube. That does become a headache. This is why I have tried to find chassis photos for a closely matching schematic.

I will give Magnavox a look.

As for Frankel, I don't think that we'll ever be able to fully agree on what were his contributions to the radio manufacturing world.

Sincerely,

John


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 Post subject: Re: Very Old Wurlitzer
PostPosted: May Mon 01, 2017 6:04 am 
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Joined: Mar Mon 05, 2012 6:35 am
Posts: 420
Location: Chicagoland, 60194
startgroove wrote:
In the case of the Lyric transformer and the the Lyric radio, it is possible that litigation was not warranted because the two items are different enough products.

Good point and my hypothesis has been busted :roll:.
I took some time and reviewed trademarks through the TESS system at the US Patent & Trademark online site. Looking through the 212 dead trademarks I found Wurlitzer's trademark for "Lyric". I could not locate Rauland or All-American Mohawk's trademark of "Lyric" so I can only assume they never registered it. Wurlitzer marketed their musical instruments using a good-better-best strategy sold as Professional-Lyric-Wurlitzer with Professional being the lowest grade. Makes no sense why they would register Wurlitzer and Professional, but not Lyric until....1950?
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Very Old Wurlitzer
PostPosted: May Sat 06, 2017 10:05 pm 
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Posts: 161
I have a 1933 wurlitzer that uses the lyric name. SA-5-L

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 Post subject: Re: Very Old Wurlitzer
PostPosted: Aug Tue 08, 2017 9:10 pm 
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Joined: Mar Mon 05, 2012 6:35 am
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Location: Chicagoland, 60194
Spotted a Wurlitzer radio/phono combo unit. The radio portion is a Mohawk one-dial set with exposed tubes made without the Indian theme.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1926-WURLITZER-RADIO-VICTROLA-7051901-/222594882229

Matt


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 Post subject: Re: Very Old Wurlitzer
PostPosted: Dec Fri 08, 2017 8:27 pm 
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Location: Under the Blue skys of OR 97524
You guys might be interested in the video of the C-3 I just made - also tube replacement/testing.

https://www.russoldradios.com/blog

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 Post subject: Re: Very Old Wurlitzer
PostPosted: Dec Fri 08, 2017 9:14 pm 
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Location: Sioux Falls, SD
Here's my Wurlitzer
[url=https://flic.kr/p/Tt3wr8]Image


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