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 Post subject: Re: Increase Sensitivity of 20ua meter. (amplifier?)
PostPosted: Mar Thu 23, 2023 4:52 pm 
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Posts: 170
Location: Damariscotta, ME
Macrohenry wrote:
The one I see on eBay has capacitors at input and output. If the one you receive has that configuration, you would need to short the capacitors for it to pass DC. A little microsurgery can be good for the mind.


Macrohenry,
I'm not much with ICs and have never worked with SMDs. I am attaching a pic of the one I bought and could you tell me which components need "shorting'?
Thanks
Attachment:
s-l400.jpg
s-l400.jpg [ 35.69 KiB | Viewed 512 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Increase Sensitivity of 20ua meter. (amplifier?)
PostPosted: Mar Thu 23, 2023 8:09 pm 
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Posts: 6438
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WA1KPD wrote:
Macrohenry wrote:
The one I see on eBay has capacitors at input and output. If the one you receive has that configuration, you would need to short the capacitors for it to pass DC. A little microsurgery can be good for the mind.


Macrohenry,
I'm not much with ICs and have never worked with SMDs. I am attaching a pic of the one I bought and could you tell me which components need "shorting'?
Thanks
Attachment:
s-l400.jpg


I see input and output pins on the left. The chip caps corresponding to them (adjacent to and in line with the pins) are likely connected to the respective pins, but you'll have to check. If so, just short the input and output caps. Makes sense?

Then check to see that you indeed have a DC amplifier by connecting a 1K, 10K, or even a 50K pot to a 1.5 V battery so that each outer terminal of the pot is connected to the positive and negative of the battery. Check the pot setup by measuring the voltage between the wiper and negative terminal as you turn the pot. You should get 0-1.5 volts.

Now, set the pot to 0 volts or close to it. Connect the wiper to the input of your modified board, connect the negative terminal to the board GND, connect your voltmeter to board output, now power up your board.

Slowly advance the pot, watching the meter for a rising DC voltage. At 100X gain, you'll quickly run out of headroom. You just want to see if you have a rising DC voltage before you connect it to the meter.

Instead of a pot you can connect a 100K resistor in series with a 1K resistor, use the common connection for the wiper, connect GND to the 1K and the battery positive to the 100K. The "wiper" connection will give you approximately 1/100 of 1.5 volts. So the output of the amplifier should be about 1.5 V. Then check with a 3 volt battery. Don't use a battery that gets close to or exceeds the power supply voltage.


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 Post subject: Re: Increase Sensitivity of 20ua meter. (amplifier?)
PostPosted: Apr Sat 08, 2023 8:33 pm 
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Joined: Jun Fri 27, 2008 2:10 am
Posts: 170
Location: Damariscotta, ME
Macrohenry wrote:
The one I see on eBay has capacitors at input and output. If the one you receive has that configuration, you would need to short the capacitors for it to pass DC. A little microsurgery can be good for the mind.


Macrohenry,
They finally arrived, long story.
Anyway in looking at the specs I presume it is cap C3 and C4 that I have to short out? I am showing the diagram and a picture of the items I plan to short.
Thanks, without filaments, I am lost!
Thanks,
Carl


Attachments:
Screenshot 2023-04-08 161803.jpg
Screenshot 2023-04-08 161803.jpg [ 93.11 KiB | Viewed 455 times ]
Screenshot 2023-04-08 161723.jpg
Screenshot 2023-04-08 161723.jpg [ 130.05 KiB | Viewed 455 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Increase Sensitivity of 20ua meter. (amplifier?)
PostPosted: Apr Sat 08, 2023 9:17 pm 
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Posts: 1500
Location: Clovis, CA
I am working on projects building a VTVM.
The chip I am is down to 50pA.
Simple to use.
Attachment:
LF353 50pa.jpg
LF353 50pa.jpg [ 171.76 KiB | Viewed 449 times ]


Dave

[/img][/img]
WA1KPD wrote:
I am trying to set up a relative signal strength meter for use with my xtal set experiments.

There are several designs on the web that call for 20ua meters. I checked inside to see if there was a shunt I could remove but there is not one. I think I am too far away to get a good reading. The readings I get are all under 1 ua, so the meter is just not valuable. Even reading mV would be fine but again the reading is just too low. I have tried this with several meters

What I am hoping to find is a simple circuit that can increase the voltage or current so it can be read. Accuracy is not important as it is only to see the relative impact of changes or adjustments.

Any thoughts? Google has not helped.


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 Post subject: Re: Increase Sensitivity of 20ua meter. (amplifier?)
PostPosted: Apr Sun 09, 2023 7:43 pm 
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WA1KPD wrote:
Macrohenry wrote:
The one I see on eBay has capacitors at input and output. If the one you receive has that configuration, you would need to short the capacitors for it to pass DC. A little microsurgery can be good for the mind.


Macrohenry,
They finally arrived, long story.
Anyway in looking at the specs I presume it is cap C3 and C4 that I have to short out? I am showing the diagram and a picture of the items I plan to short.
Thanks, without filaments, I am lost!
Thanks,
Carl


Yes, those caps block DC. Looking at the board I thought there was a cap on the output of the second op amp. If so, it would need to be shorted, too. Might have to examine all the traces and reverse engineer it to make sure.

Where did the schematic come from?


Last edited by Macrohenry on Apr Sun 09, 2023 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Increase Sensitivity of 20ua meter. (amplifier?)
PostPosted: Apr Sun 09, 2023 7:50 pm 
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Joined: Jun Fri 27, 2008 2:10 am
Posts: 170
Location: Damariscotta, ME
Macrohenry wrote:

Yes, those caps block DC. Looking at the board I thought there was a cap on the output of the second op amp. If so, it would need to be blocked, too. Might have to examine all the traces and reverse engineer it to make sure.

Where did the schematic come from?


The schematic came from a TI spec sheet. All the parts in the schematic are accounted for and I don't see a blocking cap on the output so I should be good to go.
I really appreciate the guidance.

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 Post subject: Re: Increase Sensitivity of 20ua meter. (amplifier?)
PostPosted: Apr Sun 09, 2023 9:14 pm 
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Location: Alton IL 62002 Near ST. Louis
You may want to start with a digital meter before you accidentally peg your micro amp meter .

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 Post subject: Re: Increase Sensitivity of 20ua meter. (amplifier?)
PostPosted: Apr Sun 09, 2023 9:35 pm 
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WA1KPD wrote:
Macrohenry wrote:

Yes, those caps block DC. Looking at the board I thought there was a cap on the output of the second op amp. If so, it would need to be shorted, too. Might have to examine all the traces and reverse engineer it to make sure.

Where did the schematic come from?


The schematic came from a TI spec sheet. All the parts in the schematic are accounted for and I don't see a blocking cap on the output so I should be good to go.
I really appreciate the guidance.


I edited my post to say "shorted" not "blocked. " But I see you got it anyway.

+1 per Mark's suggestion on trying with digital voltmeter first.


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 Post subject: Re: Increase Sensitivity of 20ua meter. (amplifier?)
PostPosted: Apr Sun 09, 2023 9:49 pm 
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Joined: Jun Fri 27, 2008 2:10 am
Posts: 170
Location: Damariscotta, ME
Macrohenry wrote:
WA1KPD wrote:
Macrohenry wrote:

Might have to examine all the traces and reverse engineer it to make sure.

I edited my post to say "shorted" not "blocked. " But I see you got it anyway.

+1 per Mark's suggestion on trying with a digital voltmeter first.


The traces are all covered> assume it is a sandwich board of some sort. I had originally planned on putting a small piece of wire on the trace but can't get to it. So I will remove the caps and short them.

Agree on the multi-meter.
Tnx

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 Post subject: Re: Increase Sensitivity of 20ua meter. (amplifier?)
PostPosted: Apr Mon 10, 2023 2:39 am 
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Hi gents,
I think the current plan won't work the way you want it to. Shorting the capacitors is necessary to allow the DC part of the signal of interest to pass through but in this circuit there is more to consider. This circuit is meant for use with a single polarity supply and as such biases the opamp to operate with a fixed voltage offset between 0 volts (ground) and the supply volts. The board's output will be roughly 1/2 the opamp's supply voltage (with the signal of interest imposed upon it). So, if your new board is conneced to a 12 volt supply, for instance, the board's output will be about 6 volts above ground and your meter will behave just the same as if you connected it across a 6 volt battery. It'll draw much more than 20uA and will pin at maximum deflection. Could damage the meter.

Also, once C4 is shorted, the gain pot between the two opamps will become a voltage divider that further affects the 2nd opamp's output offset. Current flow through the pot's wiper will make it noisy when turned, and the opamp's output offset will rise and fall as the pot is adjusted. Also, when C3 is shorted, the board's input can become a source of current backwards into the radio. The current flow is limited by the 10kOhm resistor in series with the first opamp's - input, so it shouldn't damage anything but it may bias the detector diode enough to interfere. I don't have crystal radio experience (other than an oatmeal tube thing we built in the 6th grade), so I'm not sure how much of a problem this would be.

The same opamp with a bipolar supply and altered circuit could do the job better. Or, another opamp to create a virtual ground for the other leg of the meter could be another approach, but a bit more complicated still. I can draw a new circuit if you wish. It might be possible to use the same board by removing a few resistors and cutting a couple traces, if that is a practical idea.

The caps can be shorted without removing them or digging for traces. Tack solder a strand across between the two ends of the part. Do one side at a time and the cap won't float away. Easy to cut or remove later on.

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 Post subject: Re: Increase Sensitivity of 20ua meter. (amplifier?)
PostPosted: Apr Mon 10, 2023 3:51 am 
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ACORNVALVE wrote:
You want a signal strength meter for assessing crystal sets right ? You are really talking about a sensitive RF probe, not a DC or audio spectrum amplifier.

One assumes you are working in the medium wave band from around 530 to 1650 kHz. The LM324 is a good OP amp for audio etc, but it is not much chop at all over 100kHz.

If you want to assess the signal, especially very weak signals, there is not much point in trying to do that by amplifying the signal from the detector, filtering that, and feeding that to a meter, even with OP amp amplification after the detector. The levels are too low for weak signals to activate the detector diode.

What you need to do is to amplify the RF signal that feeds the detector with an RF capable OP amp to get the signal, even for the weak stations, up to at least 500mV, before feeding that to a Schottky (or germamium) detector diode, before it is fed to the meter circuit, or you will not see any useful deflection on the meter with weak signals. An AD8056 is a suitable OP amp for the task.


This out of the ALLR Book.
It used on a FET voltmeter aka VTVM
Uses a LF353 chip


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