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 Post subject: Question About A Schneider Pachanga French Console 50Hz
PostPosted: Sep Wed 01, 2021 6:58 pm 
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A customer brings in this French console...a Schneider Pachanga stereo console. I quickly found it was a 50Hz factory setup...It has switchable voltages and was set on 110v. but the label on back says 50Hz. This is my first rodeo with a 50hz set. I found the schematic on Radiomuseum. It had burned out EL-84 screen resistors and 'lytic cap which I fixed. My question is...Is this set now useless due to the 50hz design, and shouldn't be run on 60Hz? I have no experience in this end of the hobby.
I did try it for a bit and it's working...phono is fast, of course. Any thoughts on what I can/should do? Or it is what it is, and not doable.
https://www.radiomuseum.org/r/schneider_pachanga.html


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 Post subject: Re: Question About A Schneider Pachanga French Console 50Hz
PostPosted: Sep Wed 01, 2021 7:25 pm 
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Except for motors/speed, 50Hz devices are perfectly happy with 60Hz. Just not the other way around.

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 Post subject: Re: Question About A Schneider Pachanga French Console 50Hz
PostPosted: Sep Wed 01, 2021 8:06 pm 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
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Back in the day turntables could be adapted to 60Hz by changing the motor pulley, but finding the proper pulley these days may be impossible. Replacing the turntable with one intended for 60Hz may be the only solution. A more difficult problem is that the FM band may not cover the entire range used in the US. For that, it is what it is.

-David


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 Post subject: Re: Question About A Schneider Pachanga French Console 50Hz
PostPosted: Sep Wed 01, 2021 8:34 pm 
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Thanks for the info....The unit has a BSR turntable marked 50Hz....so I found a BSR 60Hz one in my TT boneyard, and will swap motors...


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 Post subject: Re: Question About A Schneider Pachanga French Console 50Hz
PostPosted: Sep Wed 08, 2021 3:30 pm 
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Another option when a 60 Hz motor is not readily available is to run the phono then lightly sand one speed step on the motor with the motor running then see how many RPMs the platter spins in 1 minute and keep sanding that speed step until it's correct. Do the same for the other speeds.


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 Post subject: Re: Question About A Schneider Pachanga French Console 50Hz
PostPosted: Sep Thu 09, 2021 12:14 am 
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I'm not certain that a 50Hz motor will run at a different speed than the 60Hz motor, since you ARE running both on 60Hz. The difference is noted in whether or not they run hot. As noted, a 50Hz motor will run fine on 60Hz, but not the other way around. It's the same with transformers, btw.

To change your turntable speed, you'll need a different motor pulley. I suppose you could design a motor servo system that would spin it at the correct speed....

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 Post subject: Re: Question About A Schneider Pachanga French Console 50Hz
PostPosted: Sep Thu 09, 2021 12:18 am 
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The 50Hz motor will run faster on 60Hz.


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 Post subject: Re: Question About A Schneider Pachanga French Console 50Hz
PostPosted: Sep Thu 09, 2021 12:20 am 
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No, it won't. Well, maybe it will, maybe it won't, depending on the motor. But it's still going to need a new pulley to spin the platter at the correct speed regardless.

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 Post subject: Re: Question About A Schneider Pachanga French Console 50Hz
PostPosted: Sep Thu 09, 2021 12:24 am 
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The typical shaded pole record player motor does vary speed as frequency changes.


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 Post subject: Re: Question About A Schneider Pachanga French Console 50Hz
PostPosted: Sep Thu 09, 2021 12:28 am 
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The motor is the same. There is no 50Hz motor or 60Hz motor in the case of a phonograph. These motors are shaded-pole type and don't care what frequency they are run at, unlike split-phase induction motors where capacitors are used to establish phase shift. In that case the capacitance value is dependent on line frequency.

When we talk about a 50Hz or 60Hz motor in reference to a phonograph, we are really talking about a motor that will turn the turntable at the correct speed for the specified line frequency. The only difference is the motor pulley. The motor will run faster at 60Hz than it will at 50Hz, so the pulley must be smaller. It's not the same as a transformer -- a shaded-pole motor will be equally happy at either line frequency.

-David


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 Post subject: Re: Question About A Schneider Pachanga French Console 50Hz
PostPosted: Sep Thu 09, 2021 1:17 am 
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Well yes and no. A 60hz motor running on 50hz will overheat, unless rewound with heavier wire. We sent slide projector multi screen trade shoes all over the world, and had to rewind them or they would fry during the show

Being a slide projector motor, speed didn’t matter so much. Fir the film projectors it did

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 Post subject: Re: Question About A Schneider Pachanga French Console 50Hz
PostPosted: Sep Thu 09, 2021 2:58 am 
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Location: Boston, MA USA
Of course, a slide projector fan running 20% slower will overheat for sure! And the lamp will cook the motor too.

Film projectors that use induction motors deal with frequency change by choice of pulley. Some use run capacitors and those get changed to a higher value.

-David


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 Post subject: Re: Question About A Schneider Pachanga French Console 50Hz
PostPosted: Sep Thu 09, 2021 2:36 pm 
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Joined: Aug Sun 23, 2015 6:01 pm
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OK..Here's what I found....
The original 50Hz BSR phono ran fast when powered by the set's 50Hz power tranny plugged into our 125V 60Hz house current.
I swapped the 50Hz motor for an the same brand (BSR) style motor off a 60Hz BSR TT and the 60Hz motor ran slow.
I had to run a direct AC line dedicated to the phono off the incoming AC line before it goes thru the 50Hz power tranny to get it to run right.


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 Post subject: Re: Question About A Schneider Pachanga French Console 50Hz
PostPosted: Sep Thu 09, 2021 5:17 pm 
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Barry H Bennett wrote:
Well yes and no. A 60hz motor running on 50hz will overheat, unless rewound with heavier wire. We sent slide projector multi screen trade shoes all over the world, and had to rewind them or they would fry during the show

Being a slide projector motor, speed didn’t matter so much. Fir the film projectors it did


I'm not expert in this field but I think it depends of the type of the motor (H.S, induction,etc...) and how powerful (HP) it is.

Small low torque motors like those used in phono turntables can be used either on 50 or 60 Hz without overheating or damages, provided of course that the mains voltage is correct for the motor.

A fan (and some industrial motors) is "self-cooling" and using it at a slower speed (60 Hz motor on 50 Hz power) could lead to overheating and ultimately failure of the motor, especially in a high t° environment close to a high wattage projector bulb.

Years ago many Hi-Fi turntables manufacturers provided a second motor pulley in the accessory bag to convert from 50 to 60 Hz (or conversely) and this was the only part needed for the conversion, which confirms that the same motor can run safely either on 50 or 60 Hz power without needing rewinding or other modifications. More clever manufacturers (Thorens TD124,...) used a (upside down) single reversible pulley for frequency conversion.

I'm living in Europe (50 Hz mains power) and have many U.S (60 Hz )Hi-Fi turntables in my collection (from Rek-O-Kut, Fairchild, Presto, Empire...) which I use regularly with a 240/117 VAC step-down transformer and a new pulley. Never had any motor failure due to overheating so far.


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