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 Post subject: Re: Vinyl sales blow by CD sales...
PostPosted: Sep Tue 15, 2020 9:20 pm 
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There is one area where vinyl was indisputably better than CD's: the album cover and jacket art. CD art was never as good as this:
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 Post subject: Re: Vinyl sales blow by CD sales...
PostPosted: Sep Tue 15, 2020 9:58 pm 
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lexrageorge wrote:
There is one area where vinyl was indisputably better than CD's: the album cover and jacket art. CD art was never as good as this:
Attachment:
floyd.jpg


I cannot argue about that! Jacket art and foldouts are something CDs never could measure up to, but I do enjoy the multi-page booklet that comes with many CDs.

It is funny, the term "Album" originally meant a set of disks, or perhaps a set of images (Photo Album), but it continued to be referred to an LP as an "Album".
Well, it usually has about 10 or more songs :D

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 Post subject: Re: Vinyl sales blow by CD sales...
PostPosted: Sep Tue 15, 2020 10:07 pm 
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Vin Tageman wrote:
jimbenedict wrote:
Hundreds of as you state 'golden eared' audiophiles will disagree with you at the Hoffman Music Forum that vinyl is not superior sounding to CDs. However, if you have poor ears and/or average to poor audio equipment you would not know better.

Last audiology test my ENT ran on me said I had normal hearing. But, that was years ago, and I've noticed some roll off in the high frequencies. It's probably still "normal" for my age.
I'm happy for those adults who never suffer this particular age-related phenomenon. They are in the minority. They'll probably never get wrinkles, either, even if they live to 100. :wink:

I use "golden ears" in reference to hearing which is "perfect", even purportedly well beyond perfect, beyond normal human hearing. I've seen adults, some of which can afford super expensive gear, actually seriously claim they can hear perfectly at 24kHz and above. Swore to it!
Ok, that's great if you have a dog's hearing, but most music meant for human consumption isn't produced for dogs, so I'm not sure how such super-human hearing, even if it were possible, benefits those listeners, other than to make themselves feel better about themselves.

From what I've seen (and heard), most golden-eared audiophools suffer low self-esteem and overcompensate for the need to feel "special", and they will do whatever is necessary to feed that need. They will pour much moolah into playback equipment ($20k turntable? Must.. have.. it!) and spout nonsensical claims, in a desperate play for superiority. If they need to spend $500 on an RCA cable with ultra mega, deep penetration, vacuum sputtered, gold plate and was sprinkled with holy water and prayed over by the Pope, thinking it's got to be better than a pedestrian $25 well-shielded cable, that's their prerogative. There's no shortage of other people willing to separate them from their money. Whatever floats their boat. If it's their catharsis, hey, it works for them.

I have a bench full of test gear — which I've probably paid a sum total more for than most audiophools have spent on their playback setup, since money seems to be the important ingredient — that can quickly prove them wrong about their hearing. But nothing convinces some people. I've lost count of the times "golden ears" have completely failed double-blind tests (not performed by me). They leave the study in complete denial, of course. The test was rigged, it's a cheat, a scam, etc. You can't convince someone who has convinced themselves of one thing (no doubt reinforced by their golden-ear clique) into believing an entirely opposite thing (i.e., the truth). Thus, it's pointless to engage is such a Herculean deprogramming effort. I'll leave that to the psychiatrists.

Something that amused me greatly a while back were reactions to a video that showed a record pressing plant was using a CD source to master the treasured LPs that they had been convinced were vastly superior to CDs. That really peed in their Wheaties but good. :lol:


For the audio types, it sounds better to them when they say that they paid $30 for a record, as opposed to only $10 or so for a CD. The Japanese pressings are even more expensive, although the CD Janpanese pressings also cost more. Also a lot of the records come with a digital download link, so you can display the record and listen to the audio file. An unopened album is worth more than an opened one.

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 Post subject: Re: Vinyl sales blow by CD sales...
PostPosted: Sep Tue 15, 2020 10:31 pm 
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Our CD collection has been dramatically reduced over the past few years to just a current handful, with everything having been ripped and copied to nearly fill a 4TB hard drive with wav and flac files that play through the music server connected to our main audio system. The music is also accessible via iPad and Alexa, if desired.
And we still use a really nice turntable & tonearm to play our approximately 350 mint-condition LPs.

Streaming will be the model for the future, since there's almost two generations who are conditioned to the idea of making monthly payments for service, but not ownership. It's convenient, and for copyright owners, largely solves the issue of illegal copying and file sharing.


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 Post subject: Re: Vinyl sales blow by CD sales...
PostPosted: Sep Tue 15, 2020 11:05 pm 
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We don't have the right words.. anymore.
A "record" ... is not what we think of with a CD.

How about digital video.... everyone still says... let's "film" that.. or "tape" that
..or get it on "tape" or .. worse "footage"
can we have digital footage?

Why do our digital cameras have a mechanical shutter as added sound when exposing an image.?
I believe it's for the subject.. so they will know if their photo is being taken?

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 Post subject: Re: Vinyl sales blow by CD sales...
PostPosted: Sep Tue 15, 2020 11:35 pm 
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fifties wrote:
This board has seen many discussions of the same subjects over and over again through the years, and this has morphed into one of them; Vinyl vs CD, which is better? I think the "better" is whichever gives the particular listener greater enjoyment and satisfaction.

I remember buying a CD with '50's oldies on it, back in the '90's. I even had bought a CD carousel player; yes, there were no pops or clicks, but the music just sounded a bit different, as if it were frozen in glass; I really don't know how to describe it.

But I can say, it was different than what I remember when cruising in my car, listening to it on the radio, or at home, having taped it on my R to R tape recorder. And that's the rub; for me in particular, Vinyl produces the way I want to hear.

The CD experience, like cassettes and 8-tracks, was for convenience. Now, I D/L what I want on MP3, and have the music files on several computers, as backups. Convenience and lazyness, but it works for me.


I can take one of your records and rip it into my computer using Audacity or some other program. I can then burn a CD of the file. And I can guarantee you, it will sound virtually indentical to your record, pops, clicks, mistracking, all of it. I've done this exercise numerous times and then synched up the record with the burned CD. Nobody could tell the difference. CD is a far more transparent medium than vinyl. Vinyl's distortions are easily measured, and easily heard if you know what to listen for. Many people like the colorations it produces, and react negatively to the lack of those colorations in lossless digital audio. And lets not forget that the way music is being recorded today is designed for consumption on portable devices or in cars. Dynamic range is squashed down to almost nothing. But this isn't the fault of the format, it's the decision of the recording engineers and something the artists themselves approve.
I remember a demo at the Denver Audio Show where an audio Journalist played 6 different recordings, one from each decade from the 50's through the 00's. He started off with an Elvis single and then worked his way to something I really can't remember. Each successive recording sounded louder than the one preceding it. He left the volume control at the same position for all the recordings. The Elvis played at a soft level, but by the time he played the last recording we were covering our ears due to how loud it was playing. A very instructive demo.

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 Post subject: Re: Vinyl sales blow by CD sales...
PostPosted: Sep Tue 15, 2020 11:45 pm 
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I still buy CDs because I like to own a physical copy, and CDs are still the best combination of quality and convenience for me. I've had no trouble buying new release music, even from bands that are anything but popular.

I like having a permanent hard copy, and something that I can easily rip to my music server, and phone. Files are easily lost, and things can disappear from streaming services at any time. I also like to support the people who make the music I enjoy.

Having said that, I'm the only person I know who still buys much physical music of any format. All of my friends use various streaming services, or just listen on You tube. They're also always complaining about annoying ads, and dropped connections. Personally, I like to collect the music I love so I can listen to it whenever I want.

My ears have always found CDs essentially perfect for sound quality. Any deficiencies are invariably because of poor mastering. Most CDs don't even come close to using all of the dynamic range available in the format. There are plenty of badly mastered CDs. Some of the worst offenders are old albums that have been "remastered". Often they just compress it to make it sound louder. Other times it's a totally different mix than the one I'm used to.

I can see why people like collecting records. They're big with colorful covers, and there's endless tweaking to do. In a digital world, something analog has an appeal.


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 Post subject: Re: Vinyl sales blow by CD sales...
PostPosted: Sep Wed 16, 2020 12:10 am 
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One thing I certainly don't miss is the poor quality of US made LPs from the 60s and 70s. Pop and crackle may be tolerable in some kinds of music, but in something quiet like the Chopin Berceuse, it's like fingernails on a chalkboard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tcO95Czxj0

Rob


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 Post subject: Re: Vinyl sales blow by CD sales...
PostPosted: Sep Wed 16, 2020 12:27 am 
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shinkuukan wrote:
One thing I certainly don't miss is the poor quality of US made LPs from the 60s and 70s. Pop and crackle may be tolerable in some kinds of music, but in something quiet like the Chopin Berceuse, it's like fingernails on a chalkboard.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tcO95Czxj0

Rob


In the 70s, the import records were always considered to be better quality than the US pressings. The price was also higher. As I mentioned before, the Japanese pressings were and are considered to be almost the gold standard for both formats. A lot of stuff on Bandcamp and SoundCloud will probably always be digital only, but you can usually download FLACC and other formats on Bandcamp.

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 Post subject: Re: Vinyl sales blow by CD sales...
PostPosted: Sep Wed 16, 2020 4:19 am 
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I have a lot if CD's which were great for the car or toting music around in the old days, but when I want to listen seriously to my music, nothing sounds as good as a well maintained vinyl record and the right equipment. Vinyl has a warmth that's missing on CD's, which sound more sterile and lack the nuances that vinyl captures. People will argue this forever and everyone's entitled to their preferences, but for me the difference is clearly audible.

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 Post subject: Re: Vinyl sales blow by CD sales...
PostPosted: Sep Wed 16, 2020 4:38 am 
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jmsent wrote:

I can take one of your records and rip it into my computer using Audacity or some other program. I can then burn a CD of the file. And I can guarantee you, it will sound virtually indentical to your record, pops, clicks, mistracking, all of it

"rip" ?

I thought RIP stood for Raster Image Processor.... not analog to digital audio sampling.... but am i wrong?

I think DAC means Digital to Analog Converter ... so what is an Analog to Digital Converter called?

"Ripping"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripping

"Ripping is extracting all or parts of digital contents from a container"....
"A rip is the extracted content, in its destination format,"

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 Post subject: Re: Vinyl sales blow by CD sales...
PostPosted: Sep Wed 16, 2020 6:43 am 
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+1 on Foreign Quality. I have some German LPs and they are nice.

Ich Danke, fur deine Liebe!

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 Post subject: Re: Vinyl sales blow by CD sales...
PostPosted: Sep Wed 16, 2020 7:20 am 
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The MFSL 24K gold CDs have held their value well and will probably never go for cheap. Quite a few classic albums by Steely Dan, Blind Faith and others were given this treatment.

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 Post subject: Re: Vinyl sales blow by CD sales...
PostPosted: Sep Wed 16, 2020 7:21 am 
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The submitted "proof" of CD vs Vinyl dynamic range is high order poppycock, with a lot of fancy talk and impressive looking formulae. My very quick read seems to indicate that the whole "test" was done using both the record player AND the following preamp. I'm not really going to do a deeper dive into that article... it is but one of many, and probably one of the very few that would make such a silly claim.

If one wants to believe that vinyl is superior to CD in quality or dynamic range, no amount or type of facts are going to change their mind. The debate will probably rage on util both formats crumble to dust. But Vinyl does not have a wider dynamic range than the CD. :::::::::::lights the fuse again. ;-). It's more or less the same as the whole "audio capacitor" debate... if someone wants to hear a difference, they will.... probably due to the jacket color on the capacitor.

And lest we forget .... in the end, your listening environment is FAR more responsible for what you hear, given systems of basically equal quality, than any parameter of said system.

In other words, the ROOM and the SPEAKERS, given a reasonably high end electronics system of any type, are going to be the final word in what you actually hear.

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 Post subject: Re: Vinyl sales blow by CD sales...
PostPosted: Sep Wed 16, 2020 12:02 pm 
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Pbpix wrote:
jmsent wrote:

I can take one of your records and rip it into my computer using Audacity or some other program. I can then burn a CD of the file. And I can guarantee you, it will sound virtually indentical to your record, pops, clicks, mistracking, all of it

"rip" ?

I thought RIP stood for Raster Image Processor.... not analog to digital audio sampling.... but am i wrong?

I think DAC means Digital to Analog Converter ... so what is an Analog to Digital Converter called?

"Ripping"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripping

"Ripping is extracting all or parts of digital contents from a container"....
"A rip is the extracted content, in its destination format,"


The term "rip" was commonly used to describe the process I discussed. Whether or not it is technically accurate, I never even considered. As for your question about what an Analog to Digital Converter is called, I'm pretty sure the abbreviation is ADC.

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 Post subject: Re: Vinyl sales blow by CD sales...
PostPosted: Sep Wed 16, 2020 12:41 pm 
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ADC, DAC, RIP, EIEIO....
Yup, ADC is analog to Digital, DAC is Digital to Analog

RIP = Rest In Peace, CD's. ;-). But in the context used it is the common term used when one transfers a digital recording to a computer. It can be applied to any digital transfer I suppose, but that's the usual. I've never heard the term RIP used when transferring a CD to Tape, for instance, but it applies just as well.

I think the term RIP may have initially been used since such practice was either illegal, or at least frowned upon, by the owner of the material. Movies as well. (aka Ripoff)

EIEIO ... just threw that in there. Other than the Old McDonald's Farm song, I wonder where it actually came from ? In my field, it was also an honorary of sorts for the EIC (engineer in charge). I think both a compliment, and a slam, at the same time ;-). Not sure why, exactly lol.

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Last edited by Barry H Bennett on Sep Wed 16, 2020 1:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Vinyl sales blow by CD sales...
PostPosted: Sep Wed 16, 2020 1:01 pm 
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Barry H Bennett wrote:
ADC, DAC, RIP, EIEIO....
Yup, ADC is analog to Digital, DAC is Digital to Analog

RIP = Rest In Peace, CD's. ;-). But in the context used it is the common term used when one transfers a digital recording to a computer. It can be applied to any digital transfer I suppose, but that's the usual. I've never heard the term RIP used when transferring a CD to Tape, for instance, but it applies just as well.


Technically speaking, I guess I can justify calling it a "RIP" given that the vinyl recording first had to pass through an external A-D converter and be stored as a digital file before Audacity could do anything with it. Other than being a much slower, real-time process, it's really no different than importing a CD.

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 Post subject: Re: Vinyl sales blow by CD sales...
PostPosted: Sep Wed 16, 2020 1:26 pm 
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CDs, you can RIP 'em and BURN 'em :D

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 Post subject: Re: Vinyl sales blow by CD sales...
PostPosted: Sep Wed 16, 2020 2:44 pm 
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I was about to say you can also too easily make them into coasters, which nobody ever did with LPs.

Then I saw this: https://www.vat19.com/item/lp-record-coasters-set
:roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Vinyl sales blow by CD sales...
PostPosted: Sep Wed 16, 2020 2:50 pm 
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If you make coasters from records by the Coasters, are they Coaster-coasters?


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