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 Post subject: Re: time travel into the past
PostPosted: Dec Fri 08, 2017 1:37 pm 
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Fifties....I'm concerned....you are almost never wrong about anything...;)

I'll just go back to the equations: Most of the equations associated with fundamemtal physics have time in them.
E=mc^2
F=ma
E=IR
D=(at^2) / 2 ( free fall distance, when a is the gravitational acceleration )

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 Post subject: Re: time travel into the past
PostPosted: Dec Fri 08, 2017 2:59 pm 
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radiotechnician wrote:
Surely by now the atomic forces of element number 34 have been debated.
There is no TIME like the present! :lol:
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 Post subject: Re: time travel into the past
PostPosted: Dec Sat 09, 2017 12:57 am 
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pixellany wrote:
Fifties....I'm concerned....you are almost never wrong about anything...;)

I'll just go back to the equations: Most of the equations associated with fundamemtal physics have time in them.
E=mc^2
F=ma
E=IR
D=(at^2) / 2 ( free fall distance, when a is the gravitational acceleration )

Pix, I stated that time does not exist in nature (like energy and mass do), but rather that it's a man-made measuring device. So are the equations that you are referring to...

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 Post subject: Re: time travel into the past
PostPosted: Dec Sat 09, 2017 5:37 am 
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fifties wrote:
Flipperhome wrote:
Of course time exists in 'nature' and the fact that you admit they "naturally age" is proof of it. It's the UNIT of measure that's 'man-made', just like you can measure distance in meters, miles, or furlongs per fortnight. The units are arbitrary but the actual distance is not.

From the big bang, to star formation and galaxies, to the birth of life, to man, I.e. all of existence, time has and doe exist whether you (mankind) have any concept of it or not.

Exactly how does naturally aging exhibit any proof of "time" passing? It's a man made concept, and as you said, developed in order to measure, just as a ruler or a tape rule measures linear distance.

But that doesn't establish it as a natural occurring phenom, like energy and mass, which are the only true naturally occurring entities.
Because without time nothing could change state, exchange charges, particles, spin, et al., or evolve (which, btw, includes aging), and the speed of light would become 186 thousand miles per [doesn't exist]. Existence, as we know it, couldn't exist.

Every unit of measurement, including your precious energy and mass, are 'man-made' representations. It doesn't matter (pun) if you measure in joules and grams or in barffles and splunks, but that doesn't make energy and mass any more or less real than any of the other properties of existence. Existence doesn't need 'translation' to language, man does.

Btw, all indications are that mass is illusory and a manifestation of otherwise light speed particles confined by the Higgs Field, the boson for which has already been discovered. Mass, then, is an emergent property rather than fundamental.

But without time, nothing exists.


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 Post subject: Re: time travel into the past
PostPosted: Dec Sat 09, 2017 7:20 am 
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Flipperhome wrote:

But without time, nothing exists.

The universe, with all of it's stars, planets, meteors, black holes, gas clouds, galaxy formations, etc., (mass, BTW) existed well before man came on the scene, with his measuring instruments.

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 Post subject: Re: time travel into the past
PostPosted: Dec Sat 09, 2017 7:55 am 
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Man must have come from somewhere. And that somewhere came here after it blew up.

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 Post subject: Re: time travel into the past
PostPosted: Dec Sat 09, 2017 8:47 am 
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fifties wrote:
Flipperhome wrote:

But without time, nothing exists.

The universe, with all of it's stars, planets, meteors, black holes, gas clouds, galaxy formations, etc., (mass, BTW) existed well before man came on the scene, with his measuring instruments.
Of course it did. Which is why the 'units' we use to measure things are of no consequence to it's existence. We simply need a way to measure things, and we need to call it 'something', but, as Shakespeare said, "What's in a name? That which we call a rose, by any other word, would smell as sweet." The rose 'exists' and doesn't care what we call it, just as the universe couldn't care less what units of measurements we use. That's purely for our convenience.

You appear to have some confusion as to the meaning of "illusion" when it comes to existence. They're not contradictory terms. The "illusion" is in thinking something is fundamental when it's actually emergent from more fundamental things. For example, we used to think that 'earth' was a fundamental constituent of things but that was an 'illusion'. Of course, 'earth' still existed, it just wasn't the fundamental thing we thought it was. We eventually came to believe that all matter could be reduced to 'elements', but that too was an illusion. We discovered 'atoms', the "indivisible" constituents of matter, but that too was an illusion. Of course, atoms are very much real but we discovered that sub-atomic particles make them up.

I trust you can see where this is going. That you can point to 'galaxies' doesn't mean a blessed thing when it comes to fundamental properties. Our current understanding, always subject to revision, is that mass itself is an emergent property of massless particles confined by the Higgs field. Like all discoveries before, that doesn't mean mass is non-existent any more than the elements vanished when we discovered atoms. It just means that mass is not the fundamental thing we thought it was.

So far, we haven't been able to break time down to anything more fundamental than time and, without it, existence doesn't happen.


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 Post subject: Re: time travel into the past
PostPosted: Dec Sat 09, 2017 2:05 pm 
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Interesting debate.....

How do we know that anything exists? We either sense it directly, or we sense the effects. In either case we sense some physical property, such as mass, velocity, emitted radiation ( eg heat and light), sound, temperature, etc. etc......
We sense time by observing changes. e.g. the sun is shining before dinner, but not after. Or the family dog finished eating before the cat.

All of the above was going on before anyone wrote an equation. Humans started figuring out how to measure and quantify the "observables"---there were crude balances for weighing things, measuring distance....and time was measured by the apparent motions of the sun, moon----and later, the stars. In all cases, humans were observing parameters. The interaction between parameters presumably came much later....and only after that came the math to tie together the observations.

We know now much more that we need to about how all the parameters relate to each other, but the parameters were all there before humans were ther to observe them or give them names.

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 Post subject: Re: time travel into the past
PostPosted: Dec Sat 09, 2017 9:36 pm 
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My point has simply been that one cannot "go back" in "time"; you can't re-visit an existence younger than the current day.

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 Post subject: Re: time travel into the past
PostPosted: Dec Sun 10, 2017 2:09 am 
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Quote:
But without time, nothing exists.


That has not been proven, yet you state it as though it's fact. It's been debated by THEORETICAL physicists for the last century as to what time, if ANYTHING, really is. Quantum theorists described the universe without timeanywhere in the equation over 50 years ago. Today the b-theory of time has proponents saying that the past,present and future all exist and thus time is not necessary for the existence of the universe. Some physicists say the universe may be a hologram. Some think matter is made out of vibrating spaghetti. Someday maybe they'll realize reality can't be fully described by mathematical equations. In that sense physicists are quite narrow minded IMHO. I'm content to say the universe just is what it is,and leave it at that.


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 Post subject: Re: time travel into the past
PostPosted: Dec Sun 10, 2017 3:14 am 
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 Post subject: Re: time travel into the past
PostPosted: Dec Sun 10, 2017 3:31 am 
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I'm OK with time not existing and mass not existing and energy not existing
BUT
if someone says that Santa doesn't exist, then this conversation has gone too far for me. That would be just too absurd to believe! :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: time travel into the past
PostPosted: Dec Sun 10, 2017 5:55 am 
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fifties wrote:
My point has simply been that one cannot "go back" in "time"; you can't re-visit an existence younger than the current day.
How do you square your statement "I repeat...There is no such quantity as "time"...Only energy and mass" with that interpretation?


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 Post subject: Re: time travel into the past
PostPosted: Dec Sun 10, 2017 6:11 am 
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metzman wrote:
Quote:
But without time, nothing exists.
That has not been proven, yet you state it as though it's fact......
I was speaking in the context of currently accepted theory, not the infinite universe of speculation.


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 Post subject: Re: time travel into the past
PostPosted: Dec Sun 10, 2017 8:15 am 
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Flipperhome wrote:
fifties wrote:
My point has simply been that one cannot "go back" in "time"; you can't re-visit an existence younger than the current day.
How do you square your statement "I repeat...There is no such quantity as "time"...Only energy and mass" with that interpretation?

Easy.
The quantities of energy and mass have nothing to do with the concept of time. "Time" only comes into play when man-made equations interpret it to be in the fold.

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 Post subject: Re: time travel into the past
PostPosted: Dec Sun 10, 2017 9:10 am 
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fifties wrote:
Flipperhome wrote:
fifties wrote:
My point has simply been that one cannot "go back" in "time"; you can't re-visit an existence younger than the current day.
How do you square your statement "I repeat...There is no such quantity as "time"...Only energy and mass" with that interpretation?
Easy.
The quantities of energy and mass have nothing to do with the concept of time. "Time" only comes into play when man-made equations interpret it to be in the fold.
Saying "one cannot "go back" in "time"; you can't re-visit an existence younger than the current day" implies that time exists yet you also claim "There is no such quantity as "time." They're not the same 'point' by any interpretation.

I've already dealt with the illusion of mass. You can either accept modern physics or not but, while they may be 'cutting edge' concepts, they're not fanciful speculation and are firmly rooted in observational evidence.

Using your "man-made equations" logic nothing would exist because we only know of anything by using them, and that applies just as much to your mass and energy as it does to time. Put another way, it's a selectively nonsensical argument. You bash 'time' over the head with it, as if it means anything, yet blithely ignore the exact same consequences with your preferred mass and energy.


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 Post subject: Re: time travel into the past
PostPosted: Dec Sun 10, 2017 9:37 am 
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Flipperhome wrote:
fifties wrote:
Flipperhome wrote:
How do you square your statement "I repeat...There is no such quantity as "time"...Only energy and mass" with that interpretation?
Easy.
The quantities of energy and mass have nothing to do with the concept of time. "Time" only comes into play when man-made equations interpret it to be in the fold.
Saying "one cannot "go back" in "time"; you can't re-visit an existence younger than the current day" implies that time exists yet you also claim "There is no such quantity as "time." They're not the same 'point' by any interpretation.

Please to notice that I encapsulated the term, time, with " marks, to ID it as a man-made measurement. "Time" does not exist in the physical environment. Get over it.

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 Post subject: Re: time travel into the past
PostPosted: Dec Sun 10, 2017 10:03 am 
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Does time exist if not observed?

Dave


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 Post subject: Re: time travel into the past
PostPosted: Dec Sun 10, 2017 11:12 am 
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fifties wrote:
Flipperhome wrote:
Saying "one cannot "go back" in "time"; you can't re-visit an existence younger than the current day" implies that time exists yet you also claim "There is no such quantity as "time." They're not the same 'point' by any interpretation.

Please to notice that I encapsulated the term, time, with " marks, to ID it as a man-made measurement. "Time" does not exist in the physical environment. Get over it.
:lol: LOL :lol:

I notice that you're just as selective in the arguments you chose to quote as you are in picking which 'man-made measurements' you selectively deem to render things 'non-existent'. "Man-made measurement" is perfectly fine for mass but it's 'proof' that time doesn't exist. :roll:

Sorry, but you simply declaring it so isn't quite enough. I'll stick with accepted science.


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 Post subject: Re: time travel into the past
PostPosted: Dec Sun 10, 2017 11:33 am 
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Flipperhome wrote:
fifties wrote:
Flipperhome wrote:
Saying "one cannot "go back" in "time"; you can't re-visit an existence younger than the current day" implies that time exists yet you also claim "There is no such quantity as "time." They're not the same 'point' by any interpretation.

Please to notice that I encapsulated the term, time, with " marks, to ID it as a man-made measurement. "Time" does not exist in the physical environment. Get over it.
:lol: LOL :lol:

I notice that you're just as selective in the arguments you chose to quote as you are in picking which 'man-made measurements' you selectively deem to render things 'non-existent'. "Man-made measurement" is perfectly fine for mass but it's 'proof' that time doesn't exist. :roll:

Sorry, but you simply declaring it so isn't quite enough. I'll stick with accepted science.

Your acceptance of such is understood. I'll stick with reality...The concept of time is not a natural occurrence.

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