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 Post subject: Re: FCC Seeks comments on all digital AM radio
PostPosted: Apr Sat 27, 2019 5:27 am 
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Joined: Apr Thu 14, 2016 8:25 pm
Posts: 462
Location: pensacola fl
Do you listen to fm stereo? Are you happy with it? If so you are listening to wide band am. Did you know that? The stereo subcarrier in fm stereo is double sideband supressed carrier am. The carrier is centered on 38KHZ. The bandwidth of the signal goes from 23KHZ to 53KHZ. The carrier is regenerated in the receiver and added to the sidebands to recover the l-r audio. Now an am station can do the same thing with the carrier on and remain compatible with the radios that are out here. Add a noise blanker and you have a very competitive system. Now You do this in steps starting with the current 10KHZ bandwidth and repack the band. Many am stations have gone dark and more are to follow unfortunately but this will lessen the interference and allow stations to eventually go to 20KHZ bandwidth if desired. Now we have cd bandwidth without the compression that digital imposes to get it through on a reasonable channel width. Digital am is what early mp3 is to wav format which would occupy a huge bandwidth. Not practical on the MW band. Wouldn't even work out too well on vhf. The problems am faces are the fault of the government which gives lip service to helping am. They could mandate good receivers in the public interest. They say that they can not do that but the president is already set with color tv back in the day. They mandated certain things be done for the public such as having tuners that operated in a similar fashion aka click stop tuners for uhf just like vhf tuners. This was done to help the faltering at the time uhf broadcasters. Digital is not robust or reliable just check out your cellphone when can you hear me now comes up or dropped connections. I do not have the time or space to go into all the details but for an am station to broadcast digital is quite a task especially for multi tower, multi pattern situations. And for those who are on combiners also face problems. All this leads to expense for a not ready for anytime waste of time. Remember when stereo alone was going to save am? The broadcasters installed it and it was not promoted very well and good radios were never demanded so the public got junk and reacted to it as expected. Save am fix the problems. It the one service that did work after hurricane Michael hit Florida. Am from out of the area is all many had as there were no digital services. In those conditions digital tv had basically no viewers through the storms. In the public interest analog works far better period.


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 Post subject: Re: FCC Seeks comments on all digital AM radio
PostPosted: Apr Sat 27, 2019 6:22 am 
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Joined: Mar Tue 27, 2012 1:24 pm
Posts: 1013
Tube Radio wrote:
Renton481 wrote:
Converting AM to all HD is not futile.


Unless it has CD quality sound, it is futile as there's often other ways to listen to the same content. Now if AM broadcasters went back to how it used to be with actual DJs doing actual programming playing a food variety of what the station's genre is then maybe digital AM could work.

Renton481 wrote:
It will save the band from eventual death.


if the stuff I mentioned is done then perhaps that will be true.

Renton481 wrote:
HD has its failings but it is less bothered by noise than analog AM.


Can it be received as far as an analog AM station can?


I don't think CD quality sound is necessary. You don't get really CD quality sound online. You get a facsimile of it that has the same basic fidelity as HD radio. When I heard HD on AM a couple years ago (before the local stations switched it off) it sounded to me just like a stream.

True CD quality sound is only audible on CD's, which are -- as we all know -- disappearing.

As for Full-on HD AM, it can be heard almost as far as the analog signal, at least in tests here in the NW US. A station about 100 miles up the road was apparently audible in cars 80 miles away, in full HD. I didn't have an HD radio at the time, so I'm just going by what I heard.

Of course, YMMV. I think we all know that. I've heard enough tales of burst of RFI messing up HD on AM. But in the big picture, I think that those stations which think that HD is a viable option should be allowed that option.

I think there will be analog AM stations as long as there is an AM band and analog radios to listen to it with. LW beacons should have been gone 30 years ago, but some still exist, especially in remote areas. Analog still fills a need.


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 Post subject: Re: FCC Seeks comments on all digital AM radio
PostPosted: Apr Sat 27, 2019 4:01 pm 
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Joined: Apr Thu 14, 2016 8:25 pm
Posts: 462
Location: pensacola fl
Remember that the am band has behaviors that make it problematic at night. When analog signals mix our brain can tune out the stations underneath the one we are interested in but digital cannot do that and it is a problem the signal will be muted. Am stations cover a lot more than just 100 miles at night and this is a reality of nature we can not control. Internet streaming is another story. Depending on the codec used it can go from decent down to terrible. None of the codecs out there offer true fidelity. Pcm can offer it but requires far too much in resources. It depends on what you are listening to as to how much distortion aka artifacts you will accept. Talk radio can go over a land line and be ok classical music on the other hand is a different animal. But it still is played out every day at frequencies more suited for digital it is not reliable. It is however a neat toy. Oh and over all these years how many times did your analog devices get hacked compared to digital devices?


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 Post subject: Re: FCC Seeks comments on all digital AM radio
PostPosted: Apr Sat 27, 2019 4:23 pm 
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Posts: 7581
Location: Leo, IN or Zellwood, FL
Rather than posting your beefs here on ARF you should be posting them on the FCC site where perhaps your complaining will do some good. Click here.

https://www.fcc.gov/ecfs/search/filings?proceedings_name=RM-11836&q=(proceedings.name:((11836*)%20OR%20(RM%5C-11836))%20OR%20proceedings.description:((11836*)%20OR%20(RM%5C-11836)))&sort=date_disseminated,DESC

part way down the page on the left side click on "Express" and follow the instructions. Perhaps first read others who have commented. So far I am the ONLY ARF member who has complained to the FCC. Lets fill up their page with comments such as several have stated above.

AM radio is just fine as AM radio. NO digital should ever be allowed. If your following along and have reviewed some of the above posts and links then your aware that IBOC itself is dying as it should because it too doesn't work either.

John k9uwa

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 Post subject: Re: FCC Seeks comments on all digital AM radio
PostPosted: Apr Sun 28, 2019 12:23 am 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 10591
Location: Baguio City, Philippines
An interesting article about the importance of AM radio:

The Lo-Fi Voices
That Speak for America

Portraits of AM Radio DJs in their studios around the country
Even in decline, AM radio matters more than you might think. A photo and audio tour of the hosts driving the conversation.

BY ZACK STANTON PHOTOGRAPHS BY M. SCOTT MAHASKEY | 04/27/2019

https://www.politico.com/interactives/2 ... l-matters/


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 Post subject: Re: FCC Seeks comments on all digital AM radio
PostPosted: Apr Sun 28, 2019 1:37 am 
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Joined: Aug Sat 01, 2009 2:23 pm
Posts: 1653
Renton481 wrote:
Tube Radio wrote:
Renton481 wrote:
Converting AM to all HD is not futile.

True CD quality sound is only audible on CD's, which are -- as we all know -- disappearing.



That is incorrect. CD quality and even better than CD quality is available via the streaming services Tidal, Qobuz, and Deezer. There are also a number of internet stations streaming in FLAC at CD quality...e.g. Radioparadise.com

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John Stone
Antique Radio Club of Illinois


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 Post subject: Re: FCC Seeks comments on all digital AM radio
PostPosted: Apr Sun 28, 2019 4:03 am 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 12937
Location: Omak,wa,usa
Hello Guys,
what see is just like all the computer software also whats happening to or cd and dvd everyone is going digital from the cloud see they want everyone on a monthy bill like cable and phone .
far am radios I might stop buying them because where I live one local station and there lot noise in my am transmitter .

my Ge console has a aux input so I se that


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 Post subject: Re: FCC Seeks comments on all digital AM radio
PostPosted: Apr Sun 28, 2019 4:18 am 
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Joined: Jan Tue 31, 2012 2:17 am
Posts: 340
Location: Westland, MI, USA
Mr. Detrola wrote:
I don't see it happening.

Joe Public isn't about to go out and buy a new AM radio just to listen.

I'd guess 99% of AM listening is done in vehicles to get traffic and news reports while driving. All this will do is upset millions of people who aren't about to buy a new radio for an existing vehicle.

Exactly, and when automotive manufacturers decide to either drop AM from their infotainment systems or make the switch to digital AM, it will be game over for analog AM.


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 Post subject: Re: FCC Seeks comments on all digital AM radio
PostPosted: Apr Sun 28, 2019 6:20 am 
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Joined: Mar Tue 27, 2012 1:24 pm
Posts: 1013
jmsent wrote:
That is incorrect. CD quality and even better than CD quality is available via the streaming services Tidal, Qobuz, and Deezer. There are also a number of internet stations streaming in FLAC at CD quality...e.g. Radioparadise.com


Point taken, but I've never heard of those services, and I've never seen them mentioned on other radio discussion sites.

Popular streaming services such as Pandora, Spotify, YouTube, Tune-In, and radio station websites themselves clearly don't have actual CD quality sound -- at least that I've heard. Close, but not quite there.


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 Post subject: Re: FCC Seeks comments on all digital AM radio
PostPosted: Apr Sun 28, 2019 7:02 am 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 31995
Location: SoCal, 91387
Some of us don't want CD sound. Pop hits from the '50's, recorded in mono, when heard on a CD, often sound distant or isolated; hard to describe, but there is a difference.

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\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\He Who Dies With The Most Radios Wins//////////////////


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 Post subject: Re: FCC Seeks comments on all digital AM radio
PostPosted: Apr Sun 28, 2019 5:59 pm 
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Location: Mission Viejo, southern California
radiomania wrote:
Exactly, and when automotive manufacturers decide to either drop AM from their infotainment systems or make the switch to digital AM, it will be game over for analog AM.
What percventage of cars are replaced weach year? The cost to have analog AM is VERY low.

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 Post subject: Re: FCC Seeks comments on all digital AM radio
PostPosted: Apr Sun 28, 2019 8:04 pm 
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Joined: Aug Wed 24, 2011 4:35 am
Posts: 4427
Location: Sunnyvale CA
fifties wrote:
Some of us don't want CD sound. Pop hits from the '50's, recorded in mono, when heard on a CD, often sound distant or isolated; hard to describe, but there is a difference.



In many cases, that's because they were taken from vinyl directly , or multiple-generations-old tapes. Music recorded for 78's and others, remastered onto CD (the case with *many* jazz records), sound just fine. The only real limitation is the tape, and even early 50's tape (all based on the Magnetophon with high-frequency AC bias) can be excellent.

"CD sound" means pretty much nothing, anyway. Properly implemented, it offers exactly 0 "sound", it is effectively perfect in a mathematical sense with no practical limitations. What limits it is the analog parts of the system, which with one exception, is exactly the same as it is with analog.

What is claimed to be "CD quality" definitely is not in most cases, advertisers tend to use 128kbps lossy systems and "CD quality" interchangeably, which it most certainly is not, by a factor of about 10. That's what you hear as "digital quality", and the flaws are extremely obvious on even modest systems. But not on earbuds, which is all they, and most people, care about.

Of course, the first rule of high fidelity still exists - the better the system, the most obvious the flaws in mic placement, studio acoustics, and ambient noise become. This can be true to a great degree for the "wall of sound" type techniques - many/most of those sound absolutely horrific because the sound reinforcement and echo effect become painfully obvious.

A great example is George Harrison's All Things Must Pass, most of it sounded really good on AM radio, but is excruciating with higher-fidelity systems. There's one track that wan't over-produced and listening to the entire album, it's like a breath of fresh air, the rest of the album (which is otherwise excellent) is almost oppressive with low-fi noise and sound reinforcement.

This wasn't much of a problem in the 50's, but 60's, certainly. The music itself was different, too, with frequency ranges limited to what you could hear on a car radio. That's why FM pop music (starting in earnest in the 70's) is radically different. You didn't need "wall of sound" - which amounts to an intentional increase in the noise floor - to punch through.

Brett


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 Post subject: Re: FCC Seeks comments on all digital AM radio
PostPosted: Apr Sun 28, 2019 8:51 pm 
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Location: SoCal, 91387
Brett_Buck wrote:
fifties wrote:
Some of us don't want CD sound. Pop hits from the '50's, recorded in mono, when heard on a CD, often sound distant or isolated; hard to describe, but there is a difference.


"CD sound" means pretty much nothing, anyway. Properly implemented, it offers exactly 0 "sound", it is effectively perfect in a mathematical sense with no practical limitations. What limits it is the analog parts of the system, which with one exception, is exactly the same as it is with analog.

Well then that one exception I've certainly found noticeable. Like I said, the music sounds isolated, like maybe frozen in glass or something. I can't describe it exactly, but it just doesn't have the warmth or presence of analog, in many cases.
Or maybe I'm just crazy.

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 Post subject: Re: FCC Seeks comments on all digital AM radio
PostPosted: Apr Mon 29, 2019 12:38 am 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 1471
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
About the only thing left on AM is religious, and other talk. We have the gun rights channel and some other disturbing stuff. A few talking about a sports event that was dead five years ago.

There were a couple of decent music format AM's, but they added IBOC to the side-bands, This gave dial telephone quality to the AM bandwidth and a buzzing sound to the music. Then you add in the watermark for ratings and the whole thing goes to Hell.

I have a Sony AM/FM radio that can decode the eight AM stereo formats and there are none running anymore.

We have a couple of Mexican AM's here in the Phoenix AZ area that play some good music, but sometimes they switch to Preaching.

I have a couple of old TV's but my set top converters are all aged.

Mostly lame programming but the political season should help them make a buck.

The time will come when a nice Mcmurdo is useless and valueless and the up and comers will pitch it in the trash because our prices have already tanked.

I don't know what idiot will put on a Digital AM.

In the same boat we are moving to ATSC3.0 TV which is totally incompatible with current HD. You will have the privilege of buying a new TV and then you will enjoy paying for a subscription which will likely have pop-up political ads.

Jim


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 Post subject: Re: FCC Seeks comments on all digital AM radio
PostPosted: Apr Mon 29, 2019 2:14 pm 
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Location: Plymouth, MI
Every area of the country is different Jim. We have about 25 AM stations with oldies, jazz, sports, news and of course talk radio. Not the variety of stations there used to be, but still not bad.

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 Post subject: Re: FCC Seeks comments on all digital AM radio
PostPosted: Apr Mon 29, 2019 3:29 pm 
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Location: Warner Robins, GA
Renton481 wrote:
I don't think CD quality sound is necessary. You don't get really CD quality sound online. You get a facsimile of it that has the same basic fidelity as HD radio. When I heard HD on AM a couple years ago (before the local stations switched it off) it sounded to me just like a stream.

True CD quality sound is only audible on CD's, which are -- as we all know -- disappearing.


I have heard some online streams that at least to me sounded every bit as good as a CD. Those streams though are usually by companies who own many radio stations and thusfore can afford the best quality stream.

Renton481 wrote:
As for Full-on HD AM, it can be heard almost as far as the analog signal, at least in tests here in the NW US. A station about 100 miles up the road was apparently audible in cars 80 miles away, in full HD. I didn't have an HD radio at the time, so I'm just going by what I heard.

Of course, YMMV. I think we all know that. I've heard enough tales of burst of RFI messing up HD on AM. But in the big picture, I think that those stations which think that HD is a viable option should be allowed that option.


For instance can I receive WLW in Cincinnati from Warner Robins, GA at night if WLW went digital only? Currently I can receive it decently at night most nights with a good radio and antenna.

Will the allotted bandwidth for AM stations be enough to allow a good enough quality audio stream of at least 128kbps which is the minimum acceptable bit rate I can listen to. Anything less and I start hearing artifacts and other issues caused by the lower bit rate.

Renton481 wrote:
I think there will be analog AM stations as long as there is an AM band and analog radios to listen to it with. LW beacons should have been gone 30 years ago, but some still exist, especially in remote areas. Analog still fills a need.


Perhaps there will be as the spectrum isn't exactly usable for anything else.


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 Post subject: Re: FCC Seeks comments on all digital AM radio
PostPosted: Apr Mon 29, 2019 11:07 pm 
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Brett_Buck wrote:

A great example is George Harrison's All Things Must Pass, most of it sounded really good on AM radio, but is excruciating with higher-fidelity systems. There's one track that wan't over-produced and listening to the entire album, it's like a breath of fresh air, the rest of the album (which is otherwise excellent) is almost oppressive with low-fi noise and sound reinforcement.

Brett


Of course, All Things Must Pass was yet another Phil Spector production. I heard an interview with a couple members of Jefferson Airplane who had worked with Spector, and basically they said he absolutely hated stereo. He considered himself the "king of mono". "Wall of Sound" created that unique effect of sounding big even through a transistor radio. A kind of parlor trick that fell apart once you threw some high fidelity into the equation.

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 Post subject: Re: FCC Seeks comments on all digital AM radio
PostPosted: Apr Tue 30, 2019 1:22 am 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 1051
Location: St. Louis, MO, USA
I seem to remember talk some time ago about using digital for shortwave broadcasts. The opinion then was that a digital signal would not hold up with fading, skip, etc. This could occur with MW signals also.

Dennis


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 Post subject: Re: FCC Seeks comments on all digital AM radio
PostPosted: Apr Tue 30, 2019 2:04 am 
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Location: Omak,wa,usa
Hello guys,
Did you hear the news The crystal radio group will now become The raspberry Pie group


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 Post subject: Re: FCC Seeks comments on all digital AM radio
PostPosted: Apr Tue 30, 2019 3:12 am 
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Location: Mission Viejo, southern California
The AM dial in southern California has numerous stations.

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