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 Post subject: Dramatic improvements in four cylinder output and value
PostPosted: Jun Fri 14, 2019 1:24 am 
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For those of you who like cars, the good news just keeps coming. For example, Mercedes-Benz has a new 2.0 liter displacement four cylinder engine with an output of 416HP, with maximum torque of 369 lb-ft. Not that many years ago, the few engines which could produce that much power were several multiples of 2 liters, and consumed two or three (or more) times as much gasoline.

Go back a century, a short time in human history, and there is the 2.9 liter Model T engine which produced 20HP and 83 Lb.-Ft. of torque.

Have you compared cars you have owned to current models, including adjustments for inflation to compare the cost? For fun, here are two I bought:

1988 Pontiac Bonneville SSE
$28,800, which is $61,710 in today's money
165HP V6, 3-Speed automatic, 19/29 fuel mileage on regular, 0-60 about 10 seconds
novel electronic compass
leather interior with excellent seats
no air bags
antilock brakes
front wheel drive
large trunk which could hold my bicycle with the front wheel off

2017 BMW 340iGT with X-Drive (rear-drive based all wheel drive)
sticker about $57,450
320HP straight 6, 8-speed autmatic, 20/30 fuel mileage on premium, 0-60 about 5 seconds
wonderful fast navigation system with accurate voice recognition and a large screen, fancy sound system
leather interior, plus real wood, space for tall adults in the back seat
many airbags, antilock brakes, stability control
40-20-40 back seat and hatchback, so very handy for carrying radios and other things

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 Post subject: Re: Dramatic improvements in four cylinder output and value
PostPosted: Jun Fri 14, 2019 11:57 am 
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Joined: Nov Wed 30, 2016 7:35 pm
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Location: Sunbury, Ohio 43074
Great! I saw the beginning of this in a BMW 323 I had a few years ago. BMW had vowed to "never use a turbocharger" in an engine of theirs. This one had two. I thought it was a big block V8. Zippy, peppy, plenty of power in reserve. It surprised the heck out of me and I bought it after the test drive.

I think, faced with the extinction of the internal combustion engine, some manufacturers have belatedly stepped up to the plate. That, and a whole host of technological advancements in recent years have made possible this kind of fuel efficiency. Computer control is just one of these advancements.

You need both. There has to be both the method (within certain economic bounds) and the political will, for such advancements to occur, or manufacturers would simply not spend the money to do things like this. The bottom line here is .. well .. the bottom line. They are in business to make money. Several moving vectors have finally crossed over at a point where being more fuel efficient DOES make them more money. It's a good thing. As electric vehicle technology tech and development (read that as lower cost) marches on, hopefully the IC engine crowd will keep pace and keep making them better and better.

......until the next technology comes along. Hydrogen engines? Personal nuclear engines? Fusion reactors the size of a golf ball? Something will always be coming down the pipeline as long as competition remains a driving force in our economic business model.

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 Post subject: Re: Dramatic improvements in four cylinder output and value
PostPosted: Jun Fri 14, 2019 4:49 pm 
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Barry H Bennett wrote:
Great! I saw the beginning of this in a BMW 323 I had a few years ago. BMW had vowed to "never use a turbocharger" in an engine of theirs. This one had two. I thought it was a big block V8. Zippy, peppy, plenty of power in reserve. It surprised the heck out of me and I bought it after the test drive.
Indeed, driving our BMW is a pleasure, especially since the transmission is also well-programmed, so always seems to be in the correct gear for instant power when needed, even when in "comfort" mode.

If the Model T engine was as efficient as the new Mercedes-Benz engine, it would produce 603HP. I am surprised to find myself typing it, but I no longer see any need for V8 engines. The straight sixes will be smoother than a four, but there is just no longer a need for the extra weight and size of a V8.

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 Post subject: Re: Dramatic improvements in four cylinder output and value
PostPosted: Jun Fri 14, 2019 5:38 pm 
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The fact is that the 4 bangers of today are light years ahead of the equivalent 4 bangers of even 5-10 years ago. I recently went on a trip to San Diego and rented a Chevy Malibu. Its a full sized, large car. It was amazingly peppy and had loads of torque. Very sporty in handling. I was blown away when I looked under the hood and discovered it was a little 4 cylinder engine in there. When I looked at the new Ford Rangers they only come with one engine: a 2.4 liter 4 cylinder. Yet it produced 270 horsepower and 310lbs of torque. For a comparison my old Tacoma has a 2.2 liter engine yet is good for 134 horsepower, which when new, was itself impressive.

Such a far cry from when I was a kid and pretty much any 4 banger was as slow as mollases.


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 Post subject: Re: Dramatic improvements in four cylinder output and value
PostPosted: Jun Fri 14, 2019 6:32 pm 
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FStephenMasek wrote:
Have you compared cars you have owned to current models, including
adjustments for inflation to compare the cost? For fun, here are two I bought:
1988 Pontiac Bonneville SSE
2017 BMW 340iGT with X-Drive (rear-drive based all wheel drive).


What happened to the Jeep Grand Cherokee? :|

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 Post subject: Re: Dramatic improvements in four cylinder output and value
PostPosted: Jun Fri 14, 2019 6:42 pm 
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The Jeep has reached 112,000 miles. I may replace it with an X3M, although I may just keep it until I retire.

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 Post subject: Re: Dramatic improvements in four cylinder output and value
PostPosted: Jun Fri 14, 2019 6:52 pm 
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FStephenMasek wrote:
The Jeep has reached 112,000 miles.
I may replace it with an X3M, although I may just keep it until I retire.

Wow...it seems like you were just telling us all about purchasing it -when was that?
You seem to do a lot of driving!

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 Post subject: Re: Dramatic improvements in four cylinder output and value
PostPosted: Jun Fri 14, 2019 7:01 pm 
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Ugh... BMW :x .

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 Post subject: Re: Dramatic improvements in four cylinder output and value
PostPosted: Jun Fri 14, 2019 7:43 pm 
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Joined: Aug Sat 16, 2014 2:19 am
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Location: Palos Verdes, CA
My sister recently bought an Alfa Romeo Stelvio and I had to convince her that the 280 hp turbocharged 4 cylinder was sufficient and that the 505 hp V-6 twin-turbo wasn't necessary. My sister knows all about reliability as this is her third Alfa Romeo, although so far she hadn't had any problems. My sister has also owned two Audi TTs, one that had a manual transmission, which was fun to drive. Just this week, my sister stopped by with her son and we went over to South Bay Ferrari. The dealer had a new Ferrari 488 that was red and was just fantastic and reminded me of the P-4 prototype that finished second to the Ford GT Mark IV in 1967. The sticker price on the Ferrari 488 was $326K.


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 Post subject: Re: Dramatic improvements in four cylinder output and value
PostPosted: Jun Fri 14, 2019 7:53 pm 
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Barry H Bennett wrote:

I think, faced with the extinction of the internal combustion engine,

I wouldn't hold my breathe on that. They said the same thing about vacuum tubes in the '70's, and my oh my, they're still around, being manufactured at least in some "east bloc" countries, and there are some small manufacturers putting out tube stereo amps to this day.

Barry H Bennett wrote:
......until the next technology comes along. Hydrogen engines? Personal nuclear engines? Fusion reactors the size of a golf ball? Something will always be coming down the pipeline as long as competition remains a driving force in our economic business model.

How long have they been dreaming about this? :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Dramatic improvements in four cylinder output and value
PostPosted: Jun Fri 14, 2019 9:08 pm 
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long enough for it to be coming reality. Just look at the development curve (timeline) on electric vs gas

Like it or not, it's coming. I will be very surprised if the IC engine is still around except where exceptional horsepower (i.e. work trucks, pickups for hauling etc) for too many more years. I'll bet on less than a decade.

As smaller IC engines become more and more powerful, and simultaneously more fuel efficient, it becomes less and less profitable to pull oil out of the ground.

Interesting collection of mathematical curves starting to come together here.........

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 Post subject: Re: Dramatic improvements in four cylinder output and value
PostPosted: Jun Fri 14, 2019 9:15 pm 
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I'm all for alternate forms of energy and drivetrains but hydrogen makes no sense. It is not an actual fuel source: It requires fuel to make. So regardless of how its made makes it inefficient.


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 Post subject: Re: Dramatic improvements in four cylinder output and value
PostPosted: Jun Fri 14, 2019 9:19 pm 
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Quote:
It is not an actual fuel source: It requires fuel to make.

that's kind of the case with all energy being discussed to date. Unless someone figures out how to draw energy out of the 9th dimension using a short wire antenna, all fuels will require SOME natural resources to harness. The question is, how much. What's the return on your investment from an energy budget viewpoint.


EDIT .... upon further consideration, yes solar FUEL is free. There is a huge advantage there. Eventually I suppose we'll figure out that the initial expense of figuring out how to harness this free energy source to better advantage, will be an advantage. I cannot discuss the idea that we already have, but have not yet developed the political will to wean ourselves off oil. I'd get the thread locked ;-)

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Last edited by Barry H Bennett on Jun Sat 15, 2019 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Dramatic improvements in four cylinder output and value
PostPosted: Jun Fri 14, 2019 9:44 pm 
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Location: Mission Viejo, southern California
Despite all of the talk about electric vehicles, the batteries are still very expensive, and take hours to charge. The upcoming Porsche with the 800 volt system can be charged fast, but few places will have such charging equipment. Even for people such as me who live in California with very high gasoline prices, and who drive many business miles, the breakeven point on buying an electric vehicle instead of a gasoline-engine vehicle is quite a few years.

We do not have the electrical infrastructure to support most homes running high-amperage chargers at night. The current draw would be greater than for air conditioners. It would also be constant, while air conditioners cycle on and off.

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 Post subject: Re: Dramatic improvements in four cylinder output and value
PostPosted: Jun Fri 14, 2019 9:53 pm 
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Barry H Bennett wrote:
Quote:
It is not an actual fuel source: It requires fuel to make.

that's kind of the case with all energy being discussed to date. Unless someone figures out how to draw energy out of the 9th dimension using a short wire antenna, all fuels will require SOME natural resources to harness.

Solar power wouldn't require terrestrial elements.

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 Post subject: Re: Dramatic improvements in four cylinder output and value
PostPosted: Jun Sat 15, 2019 12:58 am 
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Quote:
Solar power wouldn't require terrestrial elements.

Solar Cells require minerals, metals, and manufacturing, no? Be nice if they just spontaneously sprung into being, but that's not possible.... yet ...;-)

But we are a LONG way from being able to get enough energy out of a solar cell to do any "work" such as running automobile motors.

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 Post subject: Re: Dramatic improvements in four cylinder output and value
PostPosted: Jun Sat 15, 2019 1:25 am 
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Joined: Feb Sun 24, 2008 4:21 am
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Location: Sedona, AZ/ Placentia CA
For those of you who like cars, the good news just keeps coming. For example, Mercedes-Benz has a new 2.0 liter displacement four cylinder engine with an output of 416HP, with maximum torque of 369 lb-ft. Not that many years ago, the few engines which could produce that much power were several multiples of 2 liters, and consumed two or three (or more) times as much gasoline.

It seems as though there is a proper fuel to air ratio for a gasoline engine. Small engines can get more power if more air is forced in, essentially making it a larger displacement engine. Certainly strides have been made to improve performance but what is the fuel economy on this 2.0 liter engine with so much output? You never get something for nothing but some improvement can be made.
We don't have to worry but just guessing passenger cars will be all electric in 20 years ( but don't quote me!).

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 Post subject: Re: Dramatic improvements in four cylinder output and value
PostPosted: Jun Sat 15, 2019 2:33 am 
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Joined: Jan Mon 28, 2013 9:35 pm
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Location: Santa Rosa, CA
The sort of efficiency levels obtained in gasoline engines is amazing.
I'm not a big fan of electric cars for a number of reasons. Not the least
of which is its very hard to compete with the energy density of gasoline.
Or even more so, diesel fuel.

Personally, I'll keep driving my classic MG's, Austin-Healeys and Corvette
for the very same reasons I use SP-600, R-390 and many more vintage
tube receivers.

Why? They are all fun to drive! Its not just the destination but the journey
as well.
Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Dramatic improvements in four cylinder output and value
PostPosted: Jun Sat 15, 2019 4:19 am 
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I do not know what the fuel mileage will be in the various vehicles in which the new 2.0 M139 four will be used. Of course, it will depend on cargo weight, terrain, and how they are driven.

Here is more from M-B:
https://media.mbusa.com/releases/the-wo ... falterbach

Here are some nice photos from Road & Track:
https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/c ... nder-m139/

Here is one vehicle in which it will be installed:
https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-shows/ ... -cylinder/

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 Post subject: Re: Dramatic improvements in four cylinder output and value
PostPosted: Jun Sat 15, 2019 4:26 am 
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i could care less about power and value. My car a 01 Volkswagen jetta tdi 5spd it has low end torque it gets 53-54 mpg. It is all about economy for me and i can still haul some radios if i need too.

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