Forums :: Resources :: Features :: Photo Gallery :: Vintage Radio Shows :: Archives
Support This Site: Contributors :: Advertise


It is currently Oct Mon 14, 2019 9:12 pm


All times are UTC [ DST ]





Post New Topic Post Reply  [ 52 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Dramatic improvements in four cylinder output and value
PostPosted: Jun Sat 15, 2019 6:42 am 
Member

Joined: Aug Wed 24, 2011 4:35 am
Posts: 4523
Location: Sunnyvale CA
FStephenMasek wrote:
For those of you who like cars, the good news just keeps coming. For example, Mercedes-Benz has a new 2.0 liter displacement four cylinder engine with an output of 416HP, with maximum torque of 369 lb-ft. Not that many years ago, the few engines which could produce that much power were several multiples of 2 liters, and consumed two or three (or more) times as much gasoline.



1.5 liter , 1500+ HP, late 80's early 90s.

Attachment:
bmw_1500_1500_91.jpg
bmw_1500_1500_91.jpg [ 393.78 KiB | Viewed 378 times ]


Courtesy insane amounts of turbo boost, like 6-10 ATM - 150 PSI! It's also lighter than a current street car engine, and smaller. Nothing would stop them from sticking a detuned version running pump gas in an M3 with easily 1000 HP, aside from everybody dying.

It is remarkable what can be done- even in the past. Current F1 engines are 800-ish HP, 2.4 liter hybrids, running pump (or close to it) gas. They have turbos, a typical regenerative hybrid system, and various forms of turbo-compounding. The engine weighs about *200 lbs* and is tiny for aerodynamic reasons. They get about 3.5 mpg at nearly full output, if they dropped it in a street car it would be getting 30ish highway and 20 ish city, if you could keep your foot out of it.

They got "piston" engines up to insane output levels back in the late 40s, using turbo-compounding and superchargers, with insane levels of power coming from the power recovery system, to the point it was clear that the pistons and cylinders were just an impediment to the process. That's also at least part of the idea behind a jet engine, it's a turbo-compound engine with a different method of burning the fuel - flame holders instead of a piston engine.

Brett


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dramatic improvements in four cylinder output and value
PostPosted: Jun Sat 15, 2019 12:46 pm 
Member

Joined: Nov Wed 30, 2016 7:35 pm
Posts: 4986
Location: Sunbury, Ohio 43074
I suppose it would be too much to ask for a small jet engine powered automobile!

_________________
Preserving the hist. of electronics, one boat anchor at a time! :)
https://www.bbtvtestequipment.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dramatic improvements in four cylinder output and value
PostPosted: Jun Sat 15, 2019 2:09 pm 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 4753
Location: Freehold NJ 07728
Whats wrong with 10 MPG? :lol:


Attachments:
Impala 1.jpg
Impala 1.jpg [ 275.26 KiB | Viewed 357 times ]

_________________
Need capacitors, resistors and other parts--> http://www.tuberadios.com/capacitors
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dramatic improvements in four cylinder output and value
PostPosted: Jun Sat 15, 2019 4:15 pm 
Member

Joined: May Thu 26, 2011 5:58 am
Posts: 3922
Location: Capon Bridge, WV
Nothing at all Sal. 10mpg sounds fine to me :D .

_________________
"Those are my principles and if you don't like them.. well, I have others"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dramatic improvements in four cylinder output and value
PostPosted: Jun Sat 15, 2019 4:58 pm 
Member

Joined: Nov Wed 30, 2016 7:35 pm
Posts: 4986
Location: Sunbury, Ohio 43074
10MPG is way better than 10GPM

_________________
Preserving the hist. of electronics, one boat anchor at a time! :)
https://www.bbtvtestequipment.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dramatic improvements in four cylinder output and value
PostPosted: Jun Sat 15, 2019 5:26 pm 
Member

Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 1771
bobwilson1977 wrote:
I'm all for alternate forms of energy and drivetrains but hydrogen makes no sense. It is not an actual fuel source: It requires fuel to make. So regardless of how its made makes it inefficient.


Compressed natural gas seemed like a great alternative. Similar range as gasoline. Compressor plumbed to your house natural gas supply. It was called "Phill", or something like that. Price was one a different meter at a lowr rate. Cars from the big makers were available. They were safe in a crash. Pollution was low. Natural gas requires no refining or mechanical wheeled transport. I had intentions to buy one for a commuter vehicle. I don't hear much about it anymore.

I see it may still be an option?
https://jaycoxconstructioncng.com/phill-unit
http://www.cngnow.com/vehicles/Pages/information.aspx


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dramatic improvements in four cylinder output and value
PostPosted: Jun Sun 16, 2019 2:23 am 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 32896
Location: SoCal, 91387
Sal Brisindi wrote:
Whats wrong with 10 MPG? :lol:

You show-off! I am very envious of that car! :wink:

_________________
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\He Who Dies With The Most Radios Wins//////////////////


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dramatic improvements in four cylinder output and value
PostPosted: Jun Sun 16, 2019 2:26 am 
Member

Joined: Aug Wed 24, 2011 4:35 am
Posts: 4523
Location: Sunnyvale CA
Scot Armstrong wrote:
bobwilson1977 wrote:
I'm all for alternate forms of energy and drivetrains but hydrogen makes no sense. It is not an actual fuel source: It requires fuel to make. So regardless of how its made makes it inefficient.


Compressed natural gas seemed like a great alternative. Similar range as gasoline. Compressor plumbed to your house natural gas supply. It was called "Phill", or something like that. Price was one a different meter at a lowr rate. Cars from the big makers were available. They were safe in a crash. Pollution was low. Natural gas requires no refining or mechanical wheeled transport. I had intentions to buy one for a commuter vehicle. I don't hear much about it anymore.


Natural gas is a much better choice than any variety of hydrogen. The only advantage of hydrogen is that you can easily get electricity from it directly, in a fuel cell, with no pollution. Otherwise the energy density, safety, and handling characteristics are terrible. It's even worse for airplanes.

Brett


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dramatic improvements in four cylinder output and value
PostPosted: Jun Sun 16, 2019 2:35 am 
Member

Joined: Sep Tue 15, 2015 1:16 am
Posts: 635
Location: 18424 PA
MB maximum torque is at 5000 rpm, max HP is at 6750rpm. Have fun driving it. 208hp per liter, that 1000hp for a 5 liter, been done long time ago, not in a production car but the MB is not going to be a regular production car either, you'd be lucky to ever see one outside of some rich neighborhood.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dramatic improvements in four cylinder output and value
PostPosted: Jun Sun 16, 2019 5:06 am 
Member

Joined: Mar Sat 23, 2019 10:57 am
Posts: 43
Location: Lincoln Nebraska
The biggest difference in car engines of today versus 100 years ago is metallurgy and the ability to mass produce quality and make lighter components. If you look at the Model T engine and the gas it had to run on, the engines of today would never start let alone be able to move the vehicle with that of the Model T years. Imagine trying to hand crank 10.5:1 compression ratio engine, or 6V trying to turn it over.

The mileage of new cars today honestly isn't very impressive when you consider I could pull 21mpg out of my 76 Caprice full size car at 65mph if I didn't trim my toenails on the fan blade.

Another thing about these "new" high horsepower engines, they aren't very impressive either when you consider Harry Miller was building race engines in 1917 and up that were capable of making incredible horsepower for how many cubic inches they were. To this day there is no engine in history that is capable of doing what it did, mainly because the engine has no cylinder head so you can boost it until you blow it up and not worry about lifting a head gasket. I believe it was Gurney/Unser who ran one in the '72 Indy with a stuck blow off valve and pushed boost so high the engine was making north of 1,600 horsepower.

You can't even compare the development curve of electric cars to that of the internal combustion engine, remember the electric car came about long before the internal combustion engine car. Electric cars would be dead again if the government didn't subsidize them, because the money isn't there just like it wasn't there in the 1800's. Imagine if Henry Ford was subsidized by the government to make the Model T.

What is old, is now new again, I am not one bit impressed at all with new cars or the power they make.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dramatic improvements in four cylinder output and value
PostPosted: Jun Sun 16, 2019 6:07 am 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Mar Sun 11, 2007 6:55 am
Posts: 11010
Location: Mission Viejo, southern California
Most race engines only need to run an hour or two, some 24 hours, some a few minutes between rebuilds. Mass production engines need to run well for years of service.

The cheap little front drive (or front drive based all wheel drive) Mercedes-Benz vehicles are so common in southern California that nobody would take a second glance at one. The AMG versions are less common. Most of any version re driven by people under 40 years old

_________________
many of my radios http://s269.photobucket.com/user/FSteph ... t=3&page=1


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dramatic improvements in four cylinder output and value
PostPosted: Jun Sun 16, 2019 7:37 am 
Member

Joined: Aug Tue 24, 2010 8:56 pm
Posts: 5673
Location: Northeast Florida
I think you're forgetting something here; the reliability factor. Modern BMW's have horrendous reliablility ratings after a few years, which is why resale value is so low. Much of that has to do with German automakers incessant reliance on engine plastics. Plastic water pumps, plastic coolant tubes, etc.

But let's forget about German car long-term unreliability for a second. Many modern cars use turbos on four cylinders to increase output to acceptable levels. That's fine for the short term, but not so good long term. Replacing a factory turbo can be a huge expense--just ask GM, who had to replace scads of them under warranty.

No thanks....just give me a naturally-aspirated Japanese car. It will be slower, but it will still be on the road 20 years after that BMW is parked in the local salvage yard.

_________________
William


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dramatic improvements in four cylinder output and value
PostPosted: Jun Sun 16, 2019 6:42 pm 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Mar Sun 11, 2007 6:55 am
Posts: 11010
Location: Mission Viejo, southern California
My 1984 Pontiac Sunbird with the 1.8 liter turbo four was running like when I sold it in 1994 with160,000 miles on the original turbo charger. The engibne had never been apart. I replaced the water pump twice, and the distributor, plus the exhaust manifold. I never hesitated to to rev it to full power before shifting.

Our 2002 Mercedes-Benz with a supercharged four is still on the road being enjoyed by a friend we sold it to. The engine is original, and has never needed anything other than a throttle body and ignition coil(coils - I changed all four).

BMWs of the past had reliability problems, but current models should be reliable. Our 2017 model has passed 26,000 miles without any problems.

_________________
many of my radios http://s269.photobucket.com/user/FSteph ... t=3&page=1


Last edited by FStephenMasek on Jun Mon 17, 2019 4:02 am, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dramatic improvements in four cylinder output and value
PostPosted: Jun Sun 16, 2019 6:59 pm 
Member

Joined: Nov Wed 30, 2016 7:35 pm
Posts: 4986
Location: Sunbury, Ohio 43074
My BMW Z3 went 130k before I sold it ... and it was not because of mechanical problems. I got a 323, which also went over 100K before I sold THAT in favor of a full size pickup truck. I decided I needed leg room in my old age.

The 323 was a twin turbo. I do not recall about the Z .... I just wanted to be James Bond for a bit there.... it was right after my divorce LOL. :)

I'm all in favor of electrics now. Except of course, they are not ready for truck duty just yet. Or perhaps ever, but we shall see. If I get another smaller vehicle it will probably be a Tesla. Something so cool about 0 to full torque in one instant, and 70mph with no engine noise ............

_________________
Preserving the hist. of electronics, one boat anchor at a time! :)
https://www.bbtvtestequipment.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dramatic improvements in four cylinder output and value
PostPosted: Jun Mon 17, 2019 2:09 am 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Nov Tue 18, 2008 8:34 am
Posts: 1465
Location: Hutchinson,Kansas
I agree the 4 cyl engine has come a long way over the years. They have decent power now and go a lot of miles compared to years ago. Some engines more then others.........sure theres been high HP 4 cyl engines years ago but they would not hold up in the daily rat race everyone runs each day. Start in cold winters and run in hot summers and do it for years and years. Smokey Yunick I believe it was said theres no replacement for displacement and its stood for a lot of years but I sometimes wonder with the advances in the 4 cyl engine with the power they are getting out of them and longevity!

Todd


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dramatic improvements in four cylinder output and value
PostPosted: Jun Mon 17, 2019 5:15 am 
Member

Joined: Aug Tue 24, 2010 8:56 pm
Posts: 5673
Location: Northeast Florida
The Chevy Cruze with the turbo 1.4 is a perfect example of how a turbo can affect reliability---some of them are failing in as little as 30k miles.

That doesn't mean that all turbo designs are bad, but American passenger car turbos are not known for having a long life. The trucks seem to fare much better

_________________
William


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dramatic improvements in four cylinder output and value
PostPosted: Jun Mon 17, 2019 9:49 am 
Member

Joined: Nov Wed 30, 2016 7:35 pm
Posts: 4986
Location: Sunbury, Ohio 43074
I think that reflects the difference between consumer and commercial design and construction. Or possibly just design geared towards cost rather than longevity. It would not be good for sales if trucks started needing major maintenance after 30K miles.

That said, other than the occasional recall due to a design flaw, I'm not aware of a rash of early turbo failures in passenger car engines either. It would tend to have the same effect as failures in truck engines on their bottom line.

A turbo is a part of the engine that is subject to extremes of temperature and operates at high RPM ... a tough life for a part ... but that said, I'd be willing to bet that there are more alternator and starters replaced, than turbos.

_________________
Preserving the hist. of electronics, one boat anchor at a time! :)
https://www.bbtvtestequipment.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dramatic improvements in four cylinder output and value
PostPosted: Jun Mon 17, 2019 4:25 pm 
Member

Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 8520
Location: Litchfield Minnesota USA
So, they've made a 4 popper motor to make V8 style horsepower only tells me that a modern V8 can make twice the power of the new 4 banger. And there is truth to that. Go out to your local drag strip and notice what sort of power they're getting from their engines.
That same technology can be put into a V8 on the street. And, that also has been done. To me, it's all about performance and I don't give a gnats behind about economy.
Mark D.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dramatic improvements in four cylinder output and value
PostPosted: Jun Mon 17, 2019 5:28 pm 
Member

Joined: Nov Wed 30, 2016 7:35 pm
Posts: 4986
Location: Sunbury, Ohio 43074
Quote:
I don't give a gnats behind about economy.

well, getting twice the power out of half the cylinders is economy, whether you care about the gnats or not :-D

What exactly do you need 700 horsepower for on the street anyway? 8)

_________________
Preserving the hist. of electronics, one boat anchor at a time! :)
https://www.bbtvtestequipment.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dramatic improvements in four cylinder output and value
PostPosted: Jun Mon 17, 2019 5:55 pm 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Dec Mon 08, 2008 8:27 pm
Posts: 10057
Location: alameda,CA
Yesterday we went and looked at new Honda Clarity plugin hybrids. I would say that in general, it is ASTOUNDING how nice cars, and I don't just mean BMWs and Mercedes- have gotten in just a few short years. The model we looked at was the base model. Yet it was crammed with features you'd think went on a top of the line luxury car. Power everything. Crash prevention systems. The car could almost drive itself: the sales guy riding along with us asked me to let go of the steering wheel and it would simply steer itself as it was able to detect painted lanes and various signs. It had ride stabilization where the suspension system would react in the corners, keeping the car from leaning. Yes- its a Honda but it was seriously one of the nicest cars I've driven.

This car in particular is a happy medium between full EVS and gas. It will go 50 miles on the battery, a further 300+ on gas once the battery runs out. Or it can be run in hybrid mode with a combination of gas and battery power.


Top
 Profile  
 
Post New Topic Post Reply  [ 52 posts ]  Moderator: Alan Voorhees Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Eddy, JamesSausy, jbees, oldgazelle, rocketeer, stevebyan and 12 guests



Search for:
Jump to:  




























Privacy Policy :: Powered by phpBB