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 Post subject: Re: Hackers Probing US Electric Grid
PostPosted: Jun Tue 18, 2019 4:21 am 
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Joined: Sep Thu 23, 2010 6:37 am
Posts: 11747
Location: Powell River BC Canada
Barry H Bennett wrote:
...well gag me with a spoon. I've always thought skin effect was mainly a high frequency thing. Witness transmission lines for high power transmitters such as TV.... the conductor is a copper pipe.

Hmph!! another lifelong belief shattered.......


Bear in mind, the data is from a 112 year old book. While valid, consider
that then there were very few high voltage transmission lines .

Skin effect is less problematic in aluminum lines with steel cores. That is what is used now.
The percent loss due to skin effect is small considering the loss due to the higher resistance
of aluminum.

No way could towers of today support copper instead of aluminum.

Our crews met skin effect when we wired induction heater shoes running at
several kW at about 30 kHz. They were done with about 4 gauge Litz wire
running back to their SMPS drivers. Terminated by dipping the ends in solder pots.

Attachment:
Calcoil 3 phase 4.5 KW module.JPG
Calcoil 3 phase 4.5 KW module.JPG [ 25.93 KiB | Viewed 266 times ]



The fourty or so shoes profiled a steel roll making it bigger or smaller in diameter
to calender paper.

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 Post subject: Re: Hackers Probing US Electric Grid
PostPosted: Jun Tue 18, 2019 8:07 am 
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Joined: Mar Tue 27, 2012 1:24 pm
Posts: 1074
Did a small, cursory search and found two articles related to Russian attempts to hack the power grid. The second link is to a government-run website article about the attempted hack.

https://www.wired.com/story/triton-hack ... ower-grid/

https://www.us-cert.gov/ncas/alerts/TA18-074A


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 Post subject: Re: Hackers Probing US Electric Grid
PostPosted: Jun Tue 18, 2019 9:05 am 
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Joined: Nov Mon 02, 2009 7:01 am
Posts: 3793
Location: Lincoln City, OR 97367
Greetings to the Forum:

I seem to remember seeing a piece of high voltage transmission line on display at Hoover dam. It was copper, but hollow. The outside was about 1/8 or maybe 3/16 inches thick. It was made of plates, curved with the curve chord perpendicular to their long axis and fitted to each other with tongue and groove joints so as to form a hollow tube. The whole thing was then twisted so that the plate joins formed spiral lines around the outside of the cable. The cable was about two inches in diameter as I recall. This was more than 50 years ago and of course, memory is suspect... but I remember being intrigued with the design.

I assumed it was to reduce weight, but the previous data on skin effect would also make the design effective from that standpoint.

Regards,

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 Post subject: Re: Hackers Probing US Electric Grid
PostPosted: Jun Tue 18, 2019 11:08 am 
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Location: Fernandina Beach, FL
I knew that skin effect was a factor with high frequencies but didn't think that it was a factor at such "low" frequencies.

Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: Hackers Probing US Electric Grid
PostPosted: Jun Tue 18, 2019 2:09 pm 
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Joined: Jan Mon 28, 2013 9:35 pm
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Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Hacking utilities (not just electricity) is how WWIII could start. Can't imagine a better way to
paralyze a country than taking down power, gas (in fact ALL fuels), all forms
of communications, water and to top it all off, all of the financial services we all use.

All of these are now dependent on the internet.

Is anything really being done to protect these systems? We may
find out the hard way.
Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Hackers Probing US Electric Grid
PostPosted: Jun Tue 18, 2019 2:17 pm 
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Joined: Nov Wed 30, 2016 7:35 pm
Posts: 5215
Location: Sunbury, Ohio 43074
While hacking these services could surely cause some paralysis, it should only be temporary while local control resumes instead of the single point management models we have foolishly come to depend upon

That’s assuming of course that said hacking dies no physical damage

and that anyone still alive knows how to fix anything. Anyone read Foundation Trilogy be Asimov?

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 Post subject: Re: Hackers Probing US Electric Grid
PostPosted: Jun Tue 18, 2019 2:32 pm 
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Location: Gretna, Nebraska
Barry H Bennett wrote:
While hacking these services could surely cause some paralysis, it should only be temporary while local control resumes instead of the single point management models we have foolishly come to depend upon

That’s assuming of course that said hacking dies no physical damage

and that anyone still alive knows how to fix anything. Anyone read Foundation Trilogy be Asimov?



In theory, this is true.
One major problem is the wide spread dependency on automation that is a routine part of the control of the modern grid.
Human operators don't control the system directly anymore as much as they supervise it.

If there is an intentional or even unintentional system upset to the grid and the automation is unable to respond, it can take hours or days to revert back to a manual mode of operation. Given the choice, automatic control is preferred over manual control most of the time.


That is why in a critical application like power control, these computer based control systems usually have multiple levels of redundancy, just as the physical hardware has redundant transmission lines, generation, and substations.

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 Post subject: Re: Hackers Probing US Electric Grid
PostPosted: Jun Wed 19, 2019 5:57 am 
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Joined: Sep Thu 23, 2010 6:37 am
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Location: Powell River BC Canada
But then there is this at the basic level.

https://www.iwr.usace.army.mil/Missions ... ydropower/

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 Post subject: Re: Hackers Probing US Electric Grid
PostPosted: Jun Wed 19, 2019 3:19 pm 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 8585
Location: Litchfield Minnesota USA
So, in the scheme of things, it might be prudent to obtain a generator that can run the whole house and enough fuel to last for at least a week. Diesel or propane would be the two best fuels.
Mark D.


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 Post subject: Re: Hackers Probing US Electric Grid
PostPosted: Jun Wed 19, 2019 8:30 pm 
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Location: Sanford Fla 32771
Quote:
So, in the scheme of things, it might be prudent to obtain a generator that can run the whole house and enough fuel to last for at least a week. Diesel or propane would be the two best fuels.
Mark D.

Being in Hurricane Florida, already have that. I was out of power for over 6 weeks (yes 6 weeks) once. Since I am in the country, I was low on the list of power restoration. My water is from my own well so power essential for me on any long outages. Everything but my air-conditioning, but I needed to only run it a couple hrs a day to replenish my water and cool down my frig.

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 Post subject: Re: Hackers Probing US Electric Grid
PostPosted: Jun Thu 20, 2019 4:48 pm 
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Location: Litchfield Minnesota USA
pauls.ironhorse wrote:
Quote:
So, in the scheme of things, it might be prudent to obtain a generator that can run the whole house and enough fuel to last for at least a week. Diesel or propane would be the two best fuels.
Mark D.

Being in Hurricane Florida, already have that. I was out of power for over 6 weeks (yes 6 weeks) once. Since I am in the country, I was low on the list of power restoration. My water is from my own well so power essential for me on any long outages. Everything but my air-conditioning, but I needed to only run it a couple hrs a day to replenish my water and cool down my frig.


To have that length of time you would need to put a 'pig' (propane tank) in the back yard to fuel the generator.

Mark D.


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 Post subject: Re: Hackers Probing US Electric Grid
PostPosted: Jun Thu 20, 2019 5:34 pm 
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Location: Sanford Fla 32771
Quote:
to have that length of time you would need to put a 'pig' (propane tank) in the back yard to fuel the generator.


I only ran it 2 hrs a day, so with a full tank(aprox 5 gallons) it would run 6 hours at 1/2 load (and the load was less than that except for motor start surges), so one tank should last 3 days. To back that up I had 20 gallons available (not including my cars) so that should be about 12 days. After one week gas stations closer to town were open, so replenishments were available.
My daughters husband did have a automatic startup propane generator with an underground tank put in after that hurricane.

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 Post subject: Re: Hackers Probing US Electric Grid
PostPosted: Jun Thu 20, 2019 5:45 pm 
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Joined: Sep Thu 23, 2010 6:37 am
Posts: 11747
Location: Powell River BC Canada
The backyard pig is a good idea, for generators, stove, and even a house heater.
I think the propane company leases them and installs them.

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 Post subject: Re: Hackers Probing US Electric Grid
PostPosted: Jun Thu 20, 2019 8:09 pm 
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It's...

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