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 Post subject: Rant On LED Flourescent Replacements
PostPosted: Jun Sun 16, 2019 4:52 pm 
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Location: Sunbury, Ohio 43074
::::::rant on:::: Ok so after months of deciding to look into replacements for all the fluorescent tubes at my shop, I headed to Home Depot to pick up one or two to try before committing to the 40 or so I need.

Looked around for a bit seeing nothing inspiring so I asked someone who just happened by, conveniently familiar with lamps. Asked for ones to replace my F48T12 tubes and split base sockets

After some puzzling answers to my questions, it turns out that HD sells only replacements for customers that want to leave the ballasts in and wired

HUH???!!?!? What’s the point of that? The ballast is the inefficient, and hot, part of the original fixture. Turns out that “HD’s customers don’t know how, nor want, to remove the ballast or touch wires

Seems to me just another way to enable stupidity in the population in general. Leaving the ballast in defeats the whole purpose of the upgrade imho

::::::::rant off

Next stop 10000bulbs.com

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Last edited by Barry H Bennett on Jun Sun 16, 2019 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Rant On LED Flourescent Replacements
PostPosted: Jun Sun 16, 2019 5:26 pm 
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Location: Mountains of Mourne. Ireland.
John k9uwa wrote a few informative postings about the good, bad and ugly world of LED replacements.

Search his posts for LED
memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=6295

Greg.


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 Post subject: Re: Rant On LED Flourescent Replacements
PostPosted: Jun Sun 16, 2019 6:35 pm 
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Joined: Jan Fri 23, 2009 1:10 am
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I found that when I put in 2 LED replacements for 2 32W T8s the power dropped from about 100W to 60W. Seems like a reasonable savings to me in addition to the probable increase in life.


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 Post subject: Re: Rant On LED Flourescent Replacements
PostPosted: Jun Sun 16, 2019 6:42 pm 
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Joined: Nov Wed 30, 2016 7:35 pm
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Location: Sunbury, Ohio 43074
jimsp wrote:
I found that when I put in 2 LED replacements for 2 32W T8s the power dropped from about 100W to 60W. Seems like a reasonable savings to me in addition to the probable increase in life.

Did you leave the ballasts in? I'll be taking mine out. They are old, lossy, and hot. These are the older, original style T12 bulbs, not T8, but I suppose roughly similar in power.

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 Post subject: Re: Rant On LED Flourescent Replacements
PostPosted: Jun Sun 16, 2019 6:44 pm 
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Barry H Bennett wrote:
After some puzzling answers to my questions, it turns out that HD sells only replacements for customers that want to leave the ballasts in and wired

HUH???!!?!? What’s the point of that? The ballast is the inefficient, and hot, part of the original fixture. Turns out that “HD’s customers don’t know how, nor want, to remove the ballast or touch wires


The point is very simple. Most of the general population want nothing to do with live juice, and HD wants nothing to do with potential lawsuits generated by offering equipment that exposes them to it.

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 Post subject: Re: Rant On LED Flourescent Replacements
PostPosted: Jun Sun 16, 2019 6:55 pm 
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Location: Sunbury, Ohio 43074
fifties wrote:
Barry H Bennett wrote:
After some puzzling answers to my questions, it turns out that HD sells only replacements for customers that want to leave the ballasts in and wired

HUH???!!?!? What’s the point of that? The ballast is the inefficient, and hot, part of the original fixture. Turns out that “HD’s customers don’t know how, nor want, to remove the ballast or touch wires


The point is very simple. Most of the general population want nothing to do with live juice, and HD wants nothing to do with potential lawsuits generated by offering equipment that exposes them to it.

Yes, I understand this. But my point is, WHAT"S the POINT of replacing them with LED's then? I suppose you gain the "I don't have to change a bulb so often" but really? The LED is hardly a 1:1 cost upgrade... you can replace a lot of flourescent tubes for the price on one LED replacement. Why bother?

I'm sure HD, if they wanted to, with their legion of lawyers, could write in enough disclaimers to protect themselves. They sel AC breakers panels, AC house wire, and Drano, don't they? And outlets, wall switches.... if it's electrical they sell it. But not LED tubes that do away with the inefficient ballast ?

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 Post subject: Re: Rant On LED Flourescent Replacements
PostPosted: Jun Sun 16, 2019 6:57 pm 
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Barry H Bennett wrote:
jimsp wrote:
I found that when I put in 2 LED replacements for 2 32W T8s the power dropped from about 100W to 60W. Seems like a reasonable savings to me in addition to the probable increase in life.

Did you leave the ballasts in? I'll be taking mine out. They are old, lossy, and hot. These are the older, original style T12 bulbs, not T8, but I suppose roughly similar in power.

I left the ballast in. Didn't do any rewiring.


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 Post subject: Re: Rant On LED Flourescent Replacements
PostPosted: Jun Sun 16, 2019 7:03 pm 
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^ There's your answer, Barry; he didn't have to expose himself to electricity, and now has a nice savings in it's future cost. Granted, not as heavy as you will gain by changing ballasts, but still worthwhile.

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 Post subject: Re: Rant On LED Flourescent Replacements
PostPosted: Jun Sun 16, 2019 7:09 pm 
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I went with the Walmart "Great Value" LED replacements in my shop and I definitely Would Not recommend them if RFI is a concern.
They literally roar and even disrupt FM reception on some older tube sets.
On the positive side, the light output seems much brighter than the T12 lamps I was replacing.

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 Post subject: Re: Rant On LED Flourescent Replacements
PostPosted: Jun Sun 16, 2019 7:40 pm 
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Joined: May Tue 30, 2006 4:46 pm
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Location: Santa Rosa, CA
The best solution is to replace the entire shop light fixture with an LED fixture.

HD doesn't want any more lawyer work and the number of folks who would rewire a fixture to bypass the ballast is a pretty small market.

Retaining the ballast and using LEDs is asking for trouble. The ballast was designed to create a high voltage spike to "ignite" the mercury vapor inside the fluorescent tube. LEDs don't need to be ignited. LEDs do not require a ballast; they have a driver module that provides the correct constant DC current to achieve the specified light output.

Products are marketed to mass audiences, not to radio technicians who want to modify what they already own.

Rich


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 Post subject: Re: Rant On LED Flourescent Replacements
PostPosted: Jun Sun 16, 2019 7:53 pm 
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Joined: Sep Tue 30, 2014 6:08 am
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Location: Norfolk, VA
I swapped in GE 48" T8 LED lamps with a Superior Electric electronic ballast in a 1980's 4-tube fixture. Where the old 4-tube fixture required TWO older, tar-filled ballasts, now I'm down to ONE smaller electronic ballast driving 4 LED tubes, 12 watts each. If my trusty Beckman reads right, I'm at 57 watts (Volt-Amps, I concede) versus the old 190VA.

190-57=133 VA savings, and longer life too. Only problem is the color temp - a bit "whiter" than the old soft white. No RFI or EMI that I can detect in two-months running..

BTW, the GE's LED bulbs are the result of their earlier recall - GE gave an $18 credit at Lowes, which covered the 4 LED tubes completely.

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 Post subject: Re: Rant On LED Flourescent Replacements
PostPosted: Jun Mon 17, 2019 3:17 am 
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Location: Lincoln City, OR 97367
Greetings to the Forum:

I was in ACE hardware the other day and they had a 48 inch LED shop light for $20. I was intrigued by the prominent notice on the box in large type to the effect that the fixture complied with FCC part 15. I installed it and I don't notice any worse noise level on 75 meters than before and it is nice and bright and white.

I just had another fixture fail today (uses the small diameter 32 watt fluorescents) and I think I will go back to Ace tomorrow and get another one.

Regards,

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 Post subject: Re: Rant On LED Flourescent Replacements
PostPosted: Jun Mon 17, 2019 4:10 am 
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Location: Warner Robins, GA
I used these in my dad's shop.

https://www.feit.com/products/bulbs/tub ... wire-tube/

Got them from Lowe's

Used an older version initially for most of his fixtures and the old version only puts light out on three sides.

The new version puts out light around the whole tube just like a fluorescent.

The old version does not emit any RFI and from having to open one up what I thought was a capacitor dropper power supply is actually the RFI filter board with a cap and 2-3 chokes.

The new version I am not sure of as I only used two of those.

My dad has four that he leaves on pretty much 18/7 and they are still going strong after nearly three years.


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 Post subject: Re: Rant On LED Flourescent Replacements
PostPosted: Jun Mon 17, 2019 4:23 am 
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Rich, W3HWJ wrote:
The best solution is to replace the entire shop light fixture with an LED fixture.
Rich

Bingo!!

Hands down, the best lighting decision I ever made.

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 Post subject: Re: Rant On LED Flourescent Replacements
PostPosted: Jun Mon 17, 2019 4:46 am 
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Location: Buffalo NY
I replaced all of my basement fixtures with these 3 footers about a month ago - they were on sale for $10 each. One of these puts out almost as much light as a 2 bulb 4' fluorescent with the color temperature I prefer for working - middle of the road between a yellowish "warm white" and bluish "cool white". They are much smaller than fluorescents, so I was able to hang one lower over my bench and it doesn't get in the way the way a fluorescent would. I also get no RFI from them.
https://www.shopvaluhomecenters.com/pro ... 410a0039e1


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 Post subject: Re: Rant On LED Flourescent Replacements
PostPosted: Jun Mon 17, 2019 4:58 am 
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A year ago I replaced a double 92 inch single pin with replacement LED bulbs. It has been running great and seems brighter than the florescent bulbs. At any rate I left the ballast in because at that time I could not find any that requires the removal of the ballast. I am curious how these work and if they really use the ballast or if the ballast could be removed.
The one on the left is a 96 inch old florescent, on the right is the plug replacement 96 inch unit.


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 Post subject: Re: Rant On LED Flourescent Replacements
PostPosted: Jun Mon 17, 2019 5:09 am 
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andyjon100: That looks just like the Livonia Lighting fixtures that I got at Home Depot a few years ago for about $25. each. Very lightweight, and they are working fine. No noticeable RFI.

Bob

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 Post subject: Re: Rant On LED Flourescent Replacements
PostPosted: Jun Mon 17, 2019 5:47 am 
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Well Barry and others your WRONG Home Depot Does sell NO BALLAST BULBS. They don't sell them in the stores. Punch the magic button on your computer and they will arrive on your doorstep in a few days FREE SHIPPING.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/toggled-24-in-8-Watt-Cool-White-4000K-T8-Linear-Tube-LED-Light-Bulb-E208-40310/205622686?MERCH=REC-_-PIPHorizontal2_rr-_-205622687-_-205622686-_-N

Toggled brand makes these bulbs this particular one is a 24" bulb and yes they also make 48" bulbs.

Also as TUBE mentioned he used the FEIT bulbs and they too are QUIET ... NO RF interference to our old radios like standard Florescent bulbs with ballasts or LED replacements that leave the ballast in place.

It takes me maybe 10 minutes to remove a ballast rewire a fixture and insert the LED DIRECT WIRE bulbs. I have never taken a fixture off a ceiling to do the rewire.

All reading this thread should read THIS ONE. https://antiqueradios.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=353013 it mentions specific brands of bulbs that are GOOD as well as some that aren't so good.

Then read this ARF thread
https://antiqueradios.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=351233&hilit=LED+Florescent+Ballast

Reasons to install DIRECT WIRE LED bulbs rather than leaving the old ballast in place.

#1 Ballasts eventually go bad and are expensive to replace
#2 Ballasts waste power. The LED bulbs run on about 65 volts DC. So why would you leave the ballast in place to produce start up voltage of a few HUNDRED volts and then yes they reduce to around 175 volts and are current limited devices.
#3 Ballasts create RF interference noise. We as old radio repairers hobbyists like to listen to our radios. Any device that causes RF interference to our radios is something that needs to be either tamed through filtering devices or else it needs to be replaced by something that doesn't make RF NOISE.
#4 Ballasts waste power.
#5 Direct wire LED bulbs run on about 18 watts per bulb rather than 30-40 watts per bulb with the old Florescent bulbs. So your saving money.
#6 the Direct Wire bulbs will cost you $10 to $12 per bulb. Cheaper in quantity purchases.

The key to finding a QUIET LED bulb can be an issue. Some of these bulbs are quiet and some are very noisy. A couple of my Ham radio friends have said that bulbs from TOGGLED are reasonably quiet. Unfortunately the bulbs I purchased from THINKLUX seem to not be available anymore. They are super quiet LED bulbs available in a range of light color.

So lets watch a short video on conversion of your EXISTING light fixture from ballast over to DIRECT WIRE. Notes from me after the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOPjCbcXNyE

In the last 3 years I have installed around 200 of these DIRECT WIRE 48" and a few 36" and a few 24" LED bulbs. So far I have never removed a fixture from the ceiling to do the changeover of the wiring. So far I have not encountered a "Shunted Tombstone" type fixture. They must exist because all the labels and instructions mention them. Some of the LED bulbs come with NON-Shunted tombstones. Tombstones in this case don't refer to old wooden radios but to the plastic sockets to which our florescent bulbs connect. Non-Shunted tombstones will have two wires coming from the socket. If your two bulb fixture has 4 wires coming from one end of the fixture to the ballast then they are Non-Shunted tombstones. So Cut the four wires very close to the ballast. Cut all the wires off the opposite end of the fixture as at least MOST Of these LED bulbs have only one "Live End" the pins on the other end are only there to keep the bulb in place. Watch it as there are exceptions. So now you have 4 wires of two colors and will now remove the ballast and disconnect the 120v AC line from that ballast. Next you need two wire nuts Usually the two that connected the AC power to the ballast Yellow ones will work fine to connect two wires the same color to the black and the other two of the other color to the white 120V supply. Put the cover back in place and install your bulbs. It might take me all of 10 minutes to convert one of these fixtures over to direct wire.

Some other added benefits to these LED bulbs are longevity most of them have 5 year warranties or 50,000 hour warranties. No more changing a bulb nearly every month another one is blinking or half on or doesn't come on at all. No More DIM bulbs in cooler weather. Click and the Bulb is ON. Yes in one end of each of these bulbs resides a SMPS Switch Mode Power Supply. Some of them are quiet and some of them are NOT quiet. It probably costs them at least 1 penny to filter the SMPS so keep noise from entering our power lines throughout the house.

As a simple test to determine yes or no whether the bulbs are making noise grab your portable transistor radio tune it to NO STATION and then do a walk about. Hold the radio a few feet from the converted fixture and if it is a quiet bulb you shouldn't hear any additional noise.

John k9uwa

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 Post subject: Re: Rant On LED Flourescent Replacements
PostPosted: Jun Mon 17, 2019 6:06 am 
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It might take me all of 10 minutes to convert one of these fixtures over to direct wire.

Three Minute Video to rewire the fixture and install the Toggled Brand Direct Wire Bulbs.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shrXPyjB2O4

John k9uwa

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 Post subject: Re: Rant On LED Flourescent Replacements
PostPosted: Jun Mon 17, 2019 6:10 am 
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Location: Haledon, NJ, usa
I replaced the 4ft fluorescents with the nice new plastic body 4ft LED 120v type. ( no ballast)

By pulling out all the old ballasts and wiring the 120v directly to the bulb... I was able to salvage a nice bunch of wire to use for radio and amplifier projects.
The old lamps were double 40 watt bulbs.
7 fixtures each w/2 forty watt bulbs = seven dual fixtures x 80 watts 0r 560watts.

Each new lamp fixture only uses one lamp now because they are so bright... and only about 9watts.
What great savings for me because my garage has about 7 fixtures.... so when all lights are on it hardly any power at all.
So now.. seven fixtures each w/only one 9w LED bulb in each = 63 watts

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