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 Post subject: Re: Do I need a new DTV Converter Box
PostPosted: Jan Tue 14, 2020 5:16 pm 
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Location: Pewaukee, WI
Odds are new converter boxes for 3.0 will be HDMI output only...


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 Post subject: Re: Do I need a new DTV Converter Box
PostPosted: Jan Wed 15, 2020 1:37 am 
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Location: Dallas, TX
I wish there was more info available about ATSC3.0. Since it works in concert with the internet, I suppose that in effect it is the end of free OTA TV.
In the articles link to by Kevin Clark it mentions TV in cars, I suppose that means it can access the internet the way a smart phone does.
I believe that I recall some discussion that the new TV could be equipped with a camera that will be able to count the people watching and even determine there age and sex through facial recognition.

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 Post subject: Re: Do I need a new DTV Converter Box
PostPosted: Jan Wed 15, 2020 1:40 am 
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Location: Waukegan, IL
Guess I wont be watching tv if they can see into my living room. Ill stick with my dvds abd vhs as longs as my players hold out and are still able to be bought

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 Post subject: Re: Do I need a new DTV Converter Box
PostPosted: Jan Wed 15, 2020 2:26 am 
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Notimetolooz wrote:
I wish there was more info available about ATSC3.0. Since it works in concert with the internet, I suppose that in effect it is the end of free OTA TV.
In the articles link to by Kevin Clark it mentions TV in cars, I suppose that means it can access the internet the way a smart phone does.

It does not work with the internet that way. You can watch TV without having an internet connection. An internet connection would allow you to get additional information, perhaps an overlay on the picture showing actors names or anything else that the TV station would care to send.
As for working in cars: All that means is that the constantly changing signal strength and the constantly changing signal reflections and multi-path will not mess up reception.

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 Post subject: Re: Do I need a new DTV Converter Box
PostPosted: Jan Wed 15, 2020 4:39 am 
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Location: Dallas, TX
I hope you are right Tom. It would be easy for them to, say, require you to register on a website before you could decode the ATSC3.0 signal.
I recall that many years ago, Zenith I think, devised a pay-for-TV system which had a box that was required to be connected to the phone (land line). In order for the broadcast TV to be watchable the system had to receive a signal over the phone line.
Having to have a internet connection as well as a antenna seems a bit redundant. There are already streaming internet shows (Netflix, etc.).
It also reminds me of the early days of broadcast stereo where there was a system that had one channel (say the right) on an AM station and the other channel on a FM station.

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 Post subject: Re: Do I need a new DTV Converter Box
PostPosted: Jan Wed 15, 2020 5:08 pm 
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Notimetolooz wrote:
I wish there was more info available about ATSC3.0. Since it works in concert with the internet, I suppose that in effect it is the end of free OTA TV.
In the articles link to by Kevin Clark it mentions TV in cars, I suppose that means it can access the internet the way a smart phone does.
I believe that I recall some discussion that the new TV could be equipped with a camera that will be able to count the people watching and even determine there age and sex through facial recognition.


Such a camera system as a compulsory feature would be highly illegal... It would never be required and if it were to be made would be optional.
Some internet connected smart TVs today have a camera for making video calls (through Skype and other similar services)...most laptops have a camera for the same purpose. In theory cameras are not on if the user doesn't want, but these devices including TVs are smart devices running an opperating system like windows, Linux or Android...computers can be hacked and Samsung smart TVs have already been used to spy on people as have laptop cameras....the easiest solution is to place a sticky note over the camera if you don't want to use it....heck they make sliding privacy shutters for those who use the cameras sometimes, but are afraid of the NSA watching them watching pron the rest of the day...
Those Amazon Alexa smart devices and all the like are just as bad if not worse...in the information age you need to avoid baseless FUD, learn how the stuff you have works and learn how to secure it properly....your computer may already be infected with a bot net and participating in a DDOS attack on a website you wouldn't want to see attacked at this very moment...
Heck if the lock on your front door is old and or a cheap hardware store brand someone could open it quietly in under 5 seconds with a bump key while your away plant any surveillance device they want or worse if you're home..... security is never one and done. what works today can be compromised tomorrow.


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 Post subject: Re: Do I need a new DTV Converter Box
PostPosted: Jan Tue 28, 2020 3:42 pm 
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Location: moreno valley
I was hooking one of my DTV tuners up to one of my old TVs about 6 months ago. I hadn't used this particular tuner in a while, but when I did a rescan the damn thing would just keep locking up in the middle of the scan. I dunno if it just became outdated or had some bug that for some reason became a problem but I ended up tossing it, it would just sit there locked in channel scan forever. Can't remember what model it was though.


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 Post subject: Re: Do I need a new DTV Converter Box
PostPosted: Jan Tue 28, 2020 6:03 pm 
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Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Some DTV Converter Boxes had very bad electrolytic caps in them. Both my brothers and my Digitalstream boxes from Radio Shack had to have all of the electrolytic caps replaced when there were only a year and a half old. Nothing has changed in the digital broadcasts.

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 Post subject: Re: Do I need a new DTV Converter Box
PostPosted: Jan Tue 28, 2020 6:16 pm 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
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Location: Phoenix, Arizona
I have two converter box's I play with. I don't recall the brands but I have had varying audio problems with both. These are the original $40 cupon converter boxes.

I believe the audio problem relates to insufficient aural power for old TV sets that I play with.

Originally TV did 20% aural power, this was eventually lowered to 10% aural power and the later TV sets worked fine with that.

I have no idea what the power ratio Visual:Aural is from these crummy converters but I will hook up to a spectrum analyzer and dee what it actually is.

Jim


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 Post subject: Re: Do I need a new DTV Converter Box
PostPosted: Jan Wed 29, 2020 2:03 am 
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Location: Belrose, NSW, Australia
I read that ASTC 3.0 is based on COFDM, the same technology that the rest of the world has been using for 20 years now.

COFDM is an amazing bit of tech. It really does allow OTA TV to work in places where analog simply doesn't. My daughter's place, on the side of a "mountain" in Sydney, was satellite only prior to digital. Multipath conditions actually benefit it!

I hope you guys end up with a system that is as at least half as good as ours in Oz.

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 Post subject: Re: Do I need a new DTV Converter Box
PostPosted: Jan Wed 29, 2020 5:27 pm 
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frenchmarky wrote:
I was hooking one of my DTV tuners up to one of my old TVs about 6 months ago. I hadn't used this particular tuner in a while, but when I did a rescan the damn thing would just keep locking up in the middle of the scan. I dunno if it just became outdated or had some bug that for some reason became a problem but I ended up tossing it, it would just sit there locked in channel scan forever. Can't remember what model it was though.

Some tuners have 2 types of scan: 1 add channels to the existing channel memory, and 2 erase the old channel memory, start fresh, and add everything found.
1 can crash the firmware on some boxes if RF carriers have changed and the new data being added to the stored data conflicts with the old stored data.
If the first scan type locks or crashes the box always go to type 2 that wipes the old channel data that can confuse the box.


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 Post subject: Re: Do I need a new DTV Converter Box
PostPosted: Jan Wed 29, 2020 6:10 pm 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 1695
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
At the TV Station (where I work), we multiplex several seperate programs onto a single ATSC1.0 stream and then send that out over the magical air waves on a single 6 MHz wide RF TV channel.

For instance, we have 1 full High Deffinition and 1 full high deffinition and four standard Deffinition Sub-channels in a single stream. Five seperate virtual TV channels on a single TV RF channel.

The RF channel could be channel 25, but the virtual channel can be different for each of the subchannels.

We use what is Called PSIP (Program and System Information Protocol) which is a data MUX'd into the stream which allows your TV or converter box to figure out where to find channel 10.2 which is actually on RF channel 27.

If the PSIP processor quits playing fair, the TV station is as good as off the air.

Not all TV tuners are created equal; I have found the very early converters have bugs in the scanning software and can't sort out the audio channels.
Some go stupid if the PSIP is missing and you try to select a sub channel. Often this requires a re-scan.

Sometimes you can punch in the known RF channel and the tuner will remap everything.

We are going through FCC Re-Pack, so stations above CH-36 have moved to a lower channel but kept their old channel identy. Some broadcasters are sharing a single transmitter for two different stations that are competetors.

ATSC3.0 is already on the air in several markets and TV sets you can purchase are about to be announced this year, soon.


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 Post subject: Re: Do I need a new DTV Converter Box
PostPosted: Jan Wed 29, 2020 6:56 pm 
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jimmc wrote:
ATSC3.0 is already on the air in several markets and TV sets you can purchase are about to be announced this year, soon.

I think that I have posted this before but I will ask again here:
For a station to broadcast ATSC3.0 while continuing to broadcast ATSC1 for awhile, does the station have to broadcast on two RF channels?
With the great reduction in available channels due to the repack, how can this be done?

Edit: I originally said ATSC2 when I meant ATSC1. Fixed that.

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Last edited by Tom Schulz on Jan Wed 29, 2020 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Do I need a new DTV Converter Box
PostPosted: Jan Wed 29, 2020 7:29 pm 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
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Location: Phoenix, Arizona
We currently broadcast ATSC1.0 and we skipped 2.0.

ATSC3.0 will occupy a single 6 MHz TV chanel. ATSC3.0 will be able to carry several programs in HD, UHD, 4K and beyond at the same time.

Current HD tuners are not able to decode any part of an ATSC3.0 stream.

I expect ATSC1.0 will stay around for quite a while. We run two full HD and four SD programs on single channels now. It works fine.

Even though Re-Pack has reduced the available channels (2 through 36) there are plenty of opertunitities to share spectrum efficiently.

Jim


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 Post subject: Re: Do I need a new DTV Converter Box
PostPosted: Jan Thu 30, 2020 1:06 pm 
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Location: St. Louis, MO, USA
I would think they would start making new TVs that can receive both ATSC 1.0 and 3.0. Otherwise it would be difficult to sell new TVs during the transition.

Dennis


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 Post subject: Re: Do I need a new DTV Converter Box
PostPosted: Feb Sun 02, 2020 4:02 pm 
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Joined: Apr Sun 15, 2012 3:10 pm
Posts: 1054
Location: Buffalo, NY
jimmc wrote:
We currently broadcast ATSC1.0 and we skipped 2.0.
Jim

No we didn't. ATSC 2.0 was used for a little while. It was also referred to as ATSC M/H or mobile DTV. It just didn't really take hold, but a few broadcasters
around the country did leverage it for a while, some apparently still do.. This list of atsc2 capable transmitters currently operating used to be quite a bit longer...

https://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=atscmph

For the short time (a year or two) it was on the air locally from a distant test transmitter in canada, I was able to lock the signal on VHF RF 13 from over a 100 miles away fairly regularly, at a SNR ~ 7 dB lower than what is normally the min required to lock for atsc1.0. I still have the atsc 2.0 compatible tuner
(Hauupauge Aero-M). It just has nothing to do around here.


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 Post subject: Re: Do I need a new DTV Converter Box
PostPosted: Feb Sun 02, 2020 6:37 pm 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
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Location: Phoenix, Arizona
I don't reecall M/H (mobile Handheld) being refered toas ATSC2.0 We always in my expierance called the current standard ATSC which is A/53. I thought M/H was then called A/53a.

I work with two full power transmitters that can transmit M/H as the Modulators are still configured for M/H. I personnaly turned off the M/H signal and put the studio componants in the recycle pile.

M/H worked so good that you couldn't decode it anywhere in the city probably due to multipath.

I have a little TV that was built to receive M/H but when we turned Condiitional Acess on it went totally deaf.

There is an App you had to have to use an enabled Cell Phone or a dongel enabled computer.

M/H data was actually contained within the current ATCS stream.

Most of the stations in my market had M/H on the air and we all quietly dumped it at about the same time

Reminds me of AM Stereo which went flat right out of the gate. I bdon't believe any of the AM radio stations are still doing HD radio on AM (IBOC), and nobody seems to know about HD on FM.

Jim


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 Post subject: Re: Do I need a new DTV Converter Box
PostPosted: Feb Mon 03, 2020 7:09 am 
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Joined: Apr Sun 15, 2012 3:10 pm
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Location: Buffalo, NY
If you are in an area with ATSC 2 (M/H) still broadcasting, and you have a computer based ATSC tuner, you can use this program
to see the programs being sent ATSC M/H (yeah some were conditional access, but not all).
Even if your Tuner dongle or tuner card wasn't designed for ATSC M/H.
Using a real ATSC M/H card you could view all the way down to like 8 dB SNR. If you don't have an M/H capable tuner you can still
use this program to view the M/H programs, using a run of the mill ATSC1.0 tuner dongle. Just you'll lose the signal at the same 15.2 dB or so as the regular ATSC channels. I used to play with this a bit when the test transmitter was on the air in Canada. Worked pretty good.
If ur in an area still broadcasting it and wanna try it, download the 'ATSC + ATSC-M/H' version.
https://www.dtvtools.com/mobile-tv-viewer/


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 Post subject: Re: Do I need a new DTV Converter Box
PostPosted: Feb Mon 03, 2020 8:40 pm 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 1695
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
I would be curious to know the call sign of any TV station still broadcasting M/H.

Those that did originally, put a copy their normal program on the M/H. The stations that participated in the consortium were the bigger network affiliates.

Many TV stations now have several sub-channels which are all encoded into the standard 19.93 Mbit/s ATSC1.0 stream.

One of the two stations I work for has two full HD and four SD signals in a single ATSC1.0 stream and it works very well and goes through the remote translators fully intact.

M/H required blocking out a chunk of the stream so the M/H could be Muxed in. Since we can sell comercials in the sub channels nobody will give up the chunk to keep M/H on since there is nothing manufactured to receive it.

At the time, we bought a single Samsung phone that had a little antenna that pulled out, only available from MetroPCS. We also had two little cubes that plugged into a Windows PC. None of this worked to any satisfaction.

There was also a detailed monitoring system that kept track of when it was off the air which seemed often. Now there is no monitoring, no support.

Now you can receive direct web streaming on your mobile device from most TV stations without ATSC anything.

Jim


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 Post subject: Re: Do I need a new DTV Converter Box
PostPosted: Feb Tue 04, 2020 3:52 am 
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Posts: 1054
Location: Buffalo, NY
majortom wrote:
This list of atsc2 capable transmitters currently operating used to be quite a bit longer...

https://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=atscmph

For the short time (a year or two) it was on the air locally from a distant test transmitter in canada, I was able to lock the signal on VHF RF 13 from over a 100 miles away fairly regularly, at a SNR ~ 7 dB lower than what is normally the min required to lock for atsc1.0. I still have the atsc 2.0 compatible tuner
(Hauupauge Aero-M). It just has nothing to do around here.

Just click the rabbitears.info link I posted earlier.
There's a dozen left.
When I was dabbling, I used that Aero-M ATSC tuner plugged in to my laptop. That program I mentioned worked well too with any
ATSC tuner dongle I had tried it on.
The Only MH station I ever picked up with it on my antenna system was CKCO-DT from Kitchener, ON on RF 13.
It's a CTV Transmitter, and they were just testing it for about a year or two. The MH program was just an SD feed of CBLT which is CBC from the CN Tower in Toronto. The only other MH signal I ever received with it was from Cleveland, and all that was encrypted.
It was kinda neat at the time because the Canadians normally don't use ANY sub channels.

The guy I know locally runs 12 channels thru his mux on his low Power UHF station.


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