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 Post subject: New Line Cinema drama on the Farnsworth/RCA dispute
PostPosted: Feb Mon 21, 2005 8:23 pm 
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Agreed Jason.<P>While it appears self evident, even the issue of "who first demonstrated television" has been debated based on the question "what constitutes practical television". So the Baird discussion, to some, comes down to whether or not his Televisors can be considered practical television. For those who have not seen a Baird Televisor in action, I can attest to the surprisingly good quality of the image. The 3:7 aspect ratio and 12.5 fps quickly go unnoticed, while faces and text are easily recognizable. This seems to meet the criteria for television.<P>As for the sub-class of electronic television, we will probably never know what Zworykin demonstrated to the brass at Westinghouse. We do know of Farnsworth's demonstration in 1927, and the oft cited patent #1,773,980. Unfortunately as others have already pointed out, this patent only describes an electronic camera, the Image Dissector. The receiver described in this patent is electro-mechanical in nature, combining a light vale modulated arc lamp, deflected by vibrating mirror's. This fact seems to be conspicuously ignored in all the claims that Farnsworth invented electronic television. It does appear that Farnsworth invented the first demonstratable electronic camera tube, as well as many key elements to television such as the composite signal carrying both the video and synchronizing signals. Both no small accomplishments.<P>The movie "The Farnsworth Invention", while I hope will at least stay true to the known facts surrounding the events portrayed, will most likely distort history to the general public, if nothing else only in the fact the word "electronic" will probably never be attached. This movie is not a documentary, and Hollywood is in the business of entertaining, and if the price is historical accuracy, so be it. As the screen writer of a major box office movie said a few years ago, "I never let the truth get in the way of the telling of a good story".<P>Darryl <P>------------------<BR>


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 Post subject: New Line Cinema drama on the Farnsworth/RCA dispute
PostPosted: Feb Tue 22, 2005 1:53 am 
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When did Farnsworth first propose including sync pulses with video?<P>The Purdue University electronic receiver, built to work with a mechanical 60 line camera, and made in 1931, used sync pulses:<BR> <A HREF="http://www.earlytelevision.org/purdue.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.earlytelevision.org/purdue.html</A> <P>------------------<BR>


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 Post subject: New Line Cinema drama on the Farnsworth/RCA dispute
PostPosted: Feb Tue 22, 2005 2:53 am 
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Hi Steve,<BR> All the early RCA experimental electronic TV's starting in 1931 also used composite syncs, but this is one of the issues they lost in the patent infringment case and had to license. I don't know if Farnsworth used this in his 1927 experiments, so it must have happened between 1927 and 1931. Does anyone have documents about Farnsworth's system?<P>Darryl<P>------------------<BR>


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 Post subject: New Line Cinema drama on the Farnsworth/RCA dispute
PostPosted: Feb Wed 23, 2005 3:07 am 
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Scott Marshall wrote:
<font>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Steve McVoy:<BR><B>It seems to me that the crucial issue in determining whether Philo was the first to demonstrate a working all-electronic TV system is whether Zworykin demonstrated a working system in 1924 or 25. <P>I'd like to hear the evidence for that demonstration (Scott Marshall - can you help?)<P></B><HR>
<P>Since Westinghouse management was not visionary enough to respect ANY work on television in the mid 1920's and didn't keep detailed records, we don't have "proof" in the strictest sense. We nevertheless have ample evidence, in my opinion, to peg the time, place, and atendees of the first CRT camera and display demo. The image presented was a black "X" against a white background.<P>In Abramson's book "Zworykin, Pioneer of Television" [available at amazon.com] the date range of the pivotal Westinghouse demo is August-September 1925. The author, who passed away recently, was in my opinion the most unbiased and scholarly historian of television technology.<P>Zworykin's autobiography is the entry related to the 1925 demo:<P><< ...working practically alone with occasional help from an excellent glassblower, Chris, I had assembled a completely electronic television system. I was so proud of the results that I spent considerable time in the library trying to find a proper name for it. The electronic pickup tube I named "Iconoscope" from two Greek words, Icon (image) and (scope) to see. The reproducing tube I named "Kinescope," from kineo (to move). Mr. Kintner was very impressed by the performance of the system, which proved the feasibility of electronic television. Although the quality of the trans­mitted image was very poor in the beginning, it was obvious that it could be improved with further work.<P>To continue the work more help, space, and a budget were needed. So we decided to show the installation to the general manager of the Westinghouse Company, Mr. H[enry] P. Davis. I will never forget that day. To start with, in trying to improve the performance, I blew up some condensers and had to spend the entire night repairing the circuit. But in the morning when Mr. Davis arrived with Mr. O[tto] Schairer, Director of the Patent Department, and Mr. Kintner, everything was working. I was able to demonstrate instant transmission of images without mechanical means.<P>[snip]<P>However, Mr. Davis was not at all impressed. He asked me a few questions, mostly as to how much time I spent building the installation, and left after (p. 82) saying something to Mr. Kintner which I did not hear. Later, I found out that he had told him to put this "guy" to work on something more useful.<P>This was a tremendous blow to me and to soften the effect Mr. Kintner suggested that I write a patent application on my television work and then begin working on something in which Westinghouse was currently interested. He decided on sound movies, since they required the use of photocells with which I was familiar.<BR>>><P>The full text of Zworykin's autobiography is available here: <A HREF="http://davidsarnoff.org/vkz.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://davidsarnoff.org/vkz.htm</A> <P>Scott<P>------------------<BR>


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 Post subject: New Line Cinema drama on the Farnsworth/RCA dispute
PostPosted: Feb Wed 23, 2005 8:03 am 
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Which goes to show the similarities among Farnsworth and Zworykin and Baird, all lone visionaries working toward the same goal.<P>Incidentally Zworykin wrote a book on photocells in 1930, so must have put most of his creative energy into that field, when he could have been developing television that many years sooner.<P>------------------<BR>


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 Post subject: New Line Cinema drama on the Farnsworth/RCA dispute
PostPosted: Feb Wed 23, 2005 8:22 am 
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Scott Marshall wrote:
<font>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alan Douglas:<BR><B>Which goes to show the similarities among Farnsworth and Zworykin and Baird, all lone visionaries working toward the same goal.<P>Incidentally Zworykin wrote a book on photocells in 1930, so must have put most of his creative energy into that field, when he could have been developing television that many years sooner.<P></B><HR>
<P>From Zworykin's book:<P><< ...it is impossible to work on an idea in commercial research without camouflaging it, unless you can convince commercial people of its immediate profitableness. It does not matter that you yourself are convinced of its importance. >><P>I believe that as a result of this feeling of Zworykin's, RCA Laboratories had a policy of allowing researchers to spend about 10 percent of their time on projects of their own interest not assigned by management.<P>Scott<BR><P>------------------<BR>


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 Post subject: New Line Cinema drama on the Farnsworth/RCA dispute
PostPosted: Feb Wed 23, 2005 4:16 pm 
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And you have to admit that Sarnoff, whatever his other faults, had a real appreciation of inventors and laboratory work.<P>------------------<BR>


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 Post subject: New Line Cinema drama on the Farnsworth/RCA dispute
PostPosted: Feb Thu 24, 2005 9:38 am 
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My understanding is that Zworykin independently invented the storage principle. When RCA did a patent search they discovered Kalman Tihanyi's precedent and purchased his patent. Of course, Swinton was first to think up the storage principle. Of course, nature was first to make it work, since that's how, chemically, the eye works.<P>One could argue that J. L. Baird used the storage principle. He ended up using movie film, quickly developed and scanned, for his high resolution video camera system. The film "stored" the image chemically just like capacitive elements in electronic targets. It's effectively what Aaron Sorkin's television shows used -- shot on film and transferred to video using Baird, not Farnsworth inventions.<P>Scott<BR><P>------------------<BR>


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 Post subject: New Line Cinema drama on the Farnsworth/RCA dispute
PostPosted: Feb Thu 24, 2005 7:54 pm 
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I tried to go to the site posted for info on Tihanyi but could not find it. Could you repost, possibly as a link? I think it would be interesting to post some info on Tihanyi here rather than start a new thread as this thread,for future viewers, is really a first hand educational piece on the inventions and work on one of the most important and history changing developements of our time.I really want to thank David for starting this thread and for all the contributors for expanding on it.If this thread keeps going it would be easier for people to keep up with the latest additions if the end of the last page would come first so you could open up the latest comments first. I have broadband at home but when traveling I usually have dial-up and it takes a long time to load.<BR>Chuck<P>------------------<BR>chuck azar


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 Post subject: New Line Cinema drama on the Farnsworth/RCA dispute
PostPosted: Mar Wed 09, 2005 2:08 pm 
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Hi, Chris.<P>This is very true and it's another reason why I was surprised at the negative response that mechanical scanning seemed to be attracting over the years when considering television history. There are many applications outside of the television industry that make use of mechanical scanning and these are taken for granted, some as being 'state of the art'. I suspect that in many cases mechanical scanning will be around for some time to come.<P>I've also come to the conclusion (that I hope will grow to be recognised as time progresses) that the simplistic view perpetrated by many historians that mechanical and electronic TV were developed on two completely different paths with one failing and the other succeeding can now be disregarded. The excellent posts on this board have confirmed that electronic television was born from mechanical television in the most direct fashion. This has become obvious from the early hybrid approaches - Farnsworth using a mechanical receiver to progress his electronic camera, and Purdue University using a mechanical camera linked to a CRT. When taking these facts into account, the history and timeline of television development becomes less convoluted.<P>Jason.<P>------------------<BR>


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 Post subject: New Line Cinema drama on the Farnsworth/RCA dispute
PostPosted: Mar Tue 15, 2005 9:39 pm 
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Fascinating! Really! So when do we get to see the TV special????<P>------------------<BR>OZ


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 Post subject: New Line Cinema drama on the Farnsworth/RCA dispute
PostPosted: Mar Wed 16, 2005 2:37 am 
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Scott Marshall wrote:
<font>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OZ132HOME:<BR><B>Fascinating! Really! So when do we get to see the TV special????<P></B><HR>
<P>It's intended to be a theatrical motion picture, but it's possible it will end up on TV if the studio decides it's the best path. My money is on a Fall 2005 release.<BR><P>------------------<BR>


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 Post subject: New Line Cinema drama on the Farnsworth/RCA dispute
PostPosted: Mar Wed 16, 2005 2:42 am 
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1905, huh? <P>Who's gonna direct it, D.W. Griffith?<P>------------------<BR> <A HREF="http://tvontheporch.com" TARGET=_blank>http://tvontheporch.com</A>


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 Post subject: New Line Cinema drama on the Farnsworth/RCA dispute
PostPosted: Mar Sat 19, 2005 9:17 am 
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I don't care <I>what</I> I posted on this thread a month ago...and you do. Why?<P>[that's rhetorical]<P>------------------<BR> <A HREF="http://tvontheporch.com" TARGET=_blank>http://tvontheporch.com</A>


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 Post subject: New Line Cinema drama on the Farnsworth/RCA dispute
PostPosted: Mar Sat 19, 2005 5:42 pm 
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Hello Ian,<BR> You are correct that JLB did insert a reference black level in between each line in the transmitted signal, which when observed audibly would have a strong 375Hz component. Because of this, he avoided ever transmitting black which would all but eliminate the reference pulses. By filtering this signal out, and using it to drive the phonic coil on the Televisor, you would achieve line lock. Line phase was achieved by a geared mechanism to rotate the phonic assembly, but there was no frame sync. You had to keep starting and stopping the motor until frame sync was correct. (but I assume you know this ;-)<BR> In this respect JLB did have the first form of composite sync, if only for the line sync, and I guess I need to be careful in my wording. I was thinking of composite sync in the terms of both line and frame by using different types of sync pulses, similar to what is in use today.<BR> Wow, this thread is starting to sound eerily similar to the main discussion!<P>Darryl<P>------------------<BR>


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