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 Post subject: Re: Philco 48-1000 Complete - how to restore?
PostPosted: Feb Sun 08, 2015 4:35 am 
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decojoe67 - As luck would have it, the New England Antique Radio Club is in my area, and they're having their twice-yearly radio show next weekend! But as luck also has it, I'm out of town this weekend and can't go. So I'll have to settle for the eBay option. We'll see what happens.

jman2343 - I'd very much appreciate testing of the picture tube and other components. I'd love to see how it's done. Would it be possible for you to come by? Should I take it to you? How would we work it?


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 Post subject: Re: Philco 48-1000 Complete - how to restore?
PostPosted: Feb Sun 08, 2015 4:39 am 
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Location: Wyoming, Michigan
sdyer wrote:
Thanks for the offer! I'm in Quincy, MA, just south of Boston. I'd love some test units. Also, any advice on getting one or two on ebay, or anywhere. Ie how to pick one good for a first time restorer, not a junker missing all the parts, or a fully-restored working unit. They seem to be inexpensive, it's just a matter of picking the right ones. I'm looking forward to seeing if this might be a fun hobby. Haven't worked with a soldering iron since I was a kid.


Tube radios are always on Craigslist.
http://boston.craigslist.org/gbs/atq/4879684713.html
http://boston.craigslist.org/gbs/atq/4874408941.html
http://boston.craigslist.org/bmw/atq/4871600097.html


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 Post subject: Re: Philco 48-1000 Complete - how to restore?
PostPosted: Feb Sun 08, 2015 7:28 am 
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About the center of the speaker. Most older speakers had a piece of felt covering the center to keep dust and debris out of the gap between the voice coil and the magnet. It looks like that is what your speaker had.

I like Pliobond glue for repairing cones. It stays slightly flexible and bonds well with the paper. Another source of paper to patch the hole would be from a scrap speaker if you have any such available.

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Last edited by Tom Schulz on Feb Sun 08, 2015 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Philco 48-1000 Complete - how to restore?
PostPosted: Feb Sun 08, 2015 8:46 am 
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Tom Schulz wrote:
keep dust and derbies out of the gap
Dust and derbies . . . auto-correct in action?

Sorry, couldn't resist :)

Phil Nelson


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 Post subject: Re: Philco 48-1000 Complete - how to restore?
PostPosted: Feb Sun 08, 2015 6:39 pm 
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philsoldradios wrote:
Tom Schulz wrote:
keep dust and derbies out of the gap
Dust and derbies . . . auto-correct in action?

Sorry, couldn't resist :

Phil Nelson

Either that or a mistyping that happened to exactly match another word. But certainly you do not want any derbies getting into your speaker!

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 Post subject: Re: Philco 48-1000 Complete - how to restore?
PostPosted: Feb Sun 08, 2015 9:52 pm 
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Tom Schulz wrote:
philsoldradios wrote:
Tom Schulz wrote:
keep dust and derbies out of the gap
Dust and derbies . . . auto-correct in action?

Sorry, couldn't resist :

Phil Nelson

Either that or a mistyping that happened to exactly match another word. But certainly you do not want any derbies getting into your speaker!

Only if you get VERY angry at your set! :D
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Philco 48-1000 Complete - how to restore?
PostPosted: Feb Sun 15, 2015 5:38 pm 
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Location: Millis, MA
And this explains one reason why you never just plug it in.

Image

I'm playing with my new toy, a Rigol DS1102E. It's amazing what around $350 will do.

This is off the B+. I think it was at the first filter. Notice how the B+ rises to about 440V before the rest of the tubes warm up and start to draw current about 10 seconds later. Took about 20 seconds before a full picture was present.

In my younger, stupider days I "just plugged in" a 1940 Zenith console radio I just got at a flea market. POOF went the 6X5 when the filters shorted. I'm very fortunate the power transformer didn't blow.


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 Post subject: Re: Philco 48-1000 Complete - how to restore?
PostPosted: Feb Sat 21, 2015 4:25 pm 
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OK, so I got a radio to restore first. An Emerson 543 off Ebay for $30. Did I do good? Haven't taken the back off yet.
Attachment:
File comment: First thing I'll attempt restoration on.
Emerson 543.jpg
Emerson 543.jpg [ 47.66 KiB | Viewed 4607 times ]


Also, I've read that I need a multimeter and capacitor tester, but not necessarily a tube tester or oscilloscope. I've seen these items on Amazon. I know I don't need two multimeters, but I added both to the cart to show them here and get feedback. Which is the better multimeter - the digital or the analog? Also, is this capacitor tester adequate?
Attachment:
File comment: Buying Multimeter, Capacitor Tester
Gear 1.tiff
Gear 1.tiff [ 132.33 KiB | Viewed 4607 times ]


Last edited by sdyer on Feb Sun 22, 2015 2:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Philco 48-1000 Complete - how to restore?
PostPosted: Feb Sat 21, 2015 5:54 pm 
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Do not buy that capacitor tester.

It's a waste of time to test old paper and electrolytic capacitors because close to 100% of them are bad. And the few that haven't gone bad yet, will probably fail soon. Read the article at http://antiqueradio.org/recap.htm and it will tell you which types of capacitors to replace.

A modern handheld cap tester isn't appropriate, anyway. Old caps fail because they become leaky, leaking current when their full operating voltage -- sometimes, hundreds of volts -- is applied. A modern tester may only apply a fraction of one volt, so it simply can't do the needed test. There are vintage cap testers that can apply the correct voltage. I have a couple of them, but I almost never use them, because I know in advance which caps will be garbage. A vintage tester will also require the same restoration as a radio of that age, so you can't just plug 'n play with it.

I don't think a cap tester is essential for a beginning restorer. Again, the article at http://antiqueradio.org/recap.htm has photos and descriptions that tell you which kinds of capacitors to replace.

I don't have a strong opinion on whether to get a digital or analog multimeter. Digital may be easier at first, if it automatically selects the right scale to display. On an analog meter you typically have to choose the range to test and then look at a particular scale on the dial to see what the needle position means. An analog meter can be slightly easier to read when you are doing an alignment operation that makes the needle swing. Neither one is a wrong choice, in my view.

That radio should be a fine practice set. Simple and not expensive.

Phil Nelson
Phil's Old Radios
http://antiqueradio.org/index.html


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 Post subject: Re: Philco 48-1000 Complete - how to restore?
PostPosted: Feb Sat 21, 2015 7:47 pm 
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Just a thought, Radio Shack has gone bankrupt this month, around here the stores are in their last week of business, and are selling everything at 70% off. Their analog multimeters are cheap in the first place, are practically free if you can find one today, plus you'll get it today, not in 5 days thru the mail. Just hurry, stuff is running out fast.

TV and radio circuits, for the most part, deal with oscillating voltages/currents that are generally not perfect sine waves. Oscillating voltages that are not perfect sine waves generally confuse the hell out of digital multimeters. Analog ones just vibrate the needle, usually imperceptibly, about the average of the oscillating signal, which is what the original (1940's-1960's) technicians used to measure signals, to publish service documents. Digital multimeters take a periodic sample of the oscillating voltage and can be anywhere, not necessarily near, the average of the signal, and will fluctuate wildly and seem like mostly nonsense. There are really good digital multimeters that do really useful modern things but for our purposes here, not so much. A simple old-school general-purpose VOM gets done most of what you'll need to get done. One exception is measuring extremely-low-current voltages, such as tube grid signals, where the VOM will interfere with (load down) the signal being measured. An even-older-school VTVM is necessary there, which is also an analog (needle-n-scale) device, but the current drain of the probes are effectively zero. Getting and restoring a VTVM is a bit tricky and advanced for a first-timer though, so buying one on ePay or a Hamfest usually leaves you with a functionally worthless device until you develop the skills to restore and calibrate it. So, again, the modern analog VOM is the way to start out.

+1 on Phil's comments on the Capacitor tester and on testing old capacitors.

The Emerson radio was a good choice. They were pretty low-end performers so don't expect High Fidelity or a lot of DX'ing, but it will produce good local AM, the circuits are simple, the set should be cake to get running (with a little help from your friends here), and if the worst happens, it's not valuable. A bonus is you'll get some practice on restoring/polishing brown Bakelite, which is an art form in itself too. If all goes well, it's a relatively attractive piece to display and will be fun to use. Couple more like it, then Grampa's old Philco TV set won't be so intimidating.

Have fun.


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 Post subject: Re: Philco 48-1000 Complete - how to restore?
PostPosted: Feb Sun 22, 2015 1:04 pm 
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Get a Digital Multimeter. Just bought a very good friend of mine a Digital Multimeter. Did a bunch of research on DMMs, and found this one to have one of the best bangs for the buck. It's Extech's EX430:

http://www.extech.com/instruments/produ ... prodid=272

It's a True RMS DMM, AutoRanging, with a fine array of tests, including a cap tester. Very easy to use/understand for a beginner. Nicely made, too.

Shop around. You'll find the price, with shipping, is a bargain. 8)

P.S. My DMM is a Fluke 87-V, which is, in retrospective, waay too much DMM for what I need restoring Vintage Electronics. On the other hand, it will pretty much last forever.

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Last edited by M3-SRT8 on Feb Sun 22, 2015 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Philco 48-1000 Complete - how to restore?
PostPosted: Feb Sun 22, 2015 1:15 pm 
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I'm going to disagree a bit with my compadres here on the need for a Cap Tester.

I use a near-vintage Sencore LC53 Cap Tester to test NEW caps (especially electrolytics) for leakage and capacitance BEFORE I install them. One by one.

Don't buy one now, though. Wait until you get a few more restorations under your belt. 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Philco 48-1000 Complete - how to restore?
PostPosted: Feb Sun 22, 2015 2:09 pm 
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M3-SRT8 wrote:
I'm going to disagree a bit with my compadres here on the need for a Cap Tester.

I use a near-vintage Sencore LC53 Cap Tester to test NEW caps (especially electrolytics) for leakage and capacitance BEFORE I install them. One by one.

Don't buy one now, though. Wait until you get a few more restorations under your belt. 8)


I might say that Lee is spot on with his comment. If you want a capacitor tester, you may want to look for a used Heathkit C-3 or EICO 950B. (It will need to be restored too!) I agree that you could save yourself a lot of grief if you test before you install new components. If for no other reason, it will familiarize you with the use of the equipment.

But with vintage equipment having 50-60 year old electrolytic and paper capacitors, the wise thing to do is just replace them methodically. Some will tell you to do a few at a time and try the equipment as opposed to doing all at once. But make no mistake, if the old capacitors even test OK, it is a matter of time until they fail. Not "If"; rather "When".

Please continue to update us ... with photos if possible!

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 Post subject: Re: Philco 48-1000 Complete - how to restore?
PostPosted: Feb Sun 22, 2015 4:42 pm 
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Oh, and that Extech EX430? I paid under $60 for it. Delivered.

Knowing what I know now, it's the first DMM I would have bought. And, it might have been the last. 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Philco 48-1000 Complete - how to restore?
PostPosted: Feb Sun 22, 2015 4:46 pm 
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Don Cavey wrote:
But with vintage equipment having 50-60 year old electrolytic and paper capacitors, the wise thing to do is just replace them methodically. Some will tell you to do a few at a time and try the equipment as opposed to doing all at once. But make no mistake, if the old capacitors even test OK, it is a matter of time until they fail. Not "If"; rather "When".


Oh, yeah. A few (make that a couple) at a time, starting with the Filter Caps.

Power up gradually with a Variac after every 2 or 3 caps.

That's another thingy you should have from the get-go. A Variac. 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Philco 48-1000 Complete - how to restore?
PostPosted: Feb Sun 22, 2015 6:20 pm 
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I've started a separate thread for the Emerson 543 project. It's at http://antiqueradios.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=271064&p=2264307#p2264307.

I've also ordered some tools:
- Weller WES51 soldering iron
- Tekpower TP7244L multimeter

I went with the analog multimeter. If I need a digital, they aren't that expensive. No capacitor checker or oscilloscope for now.


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 Post subject: Re: Philco 48-1000 Complete - how to restore?
PostPosted: Feb Sun 22, 2015 6:22 pm 
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Several people have mentioned a Variac. Should I get one? If so, which one?


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 Post subject: Re: Philco 48-1000 Complete - how to restore?
PostPosted: Feb Sun 22, 2015 7:31 pm 
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It is nice to hear that you are proceeding with restoration work, sdyer. Regarding Variacs (which is actually a brand name for one company's products), you would need one with the current capacity for the wattage of your Philco TV set. It is probably 250-300 watts, so a 3-amp or larger one (which is 360 watts at 120 volts) would be good. They may also be rated in "VA", or "volt-amps", which are reasonably close to "watts", so the same numbers can be used in this case.

The generic name for these devices is "variable autotransformer".

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 Post subject: Re: Philco 48-1000 Complete - how to restore?
PostPosted: Feb Sun 22, 2015 7:52 pm 
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Having said that, I have a Variac (or other brand) but I do not routinely use it for every restoration that I do. They are mostly used for "first-time power up" of devices, as opposed to being in constant use during the work, typically. I rely on other methods to avoid catastrophic failures:

-High attention to detail, so I connect new parts in exactly the same location as the old ones
-Replacing all of the typically-bad parts first (paper and electrolytic capacitors, and bad resistors) and doing resistance tests of the main power-supply wiring before ever plugging in an old TV set or other device
-Using a device called a Kill-A-Watt, which sells for about $25 in many stores, that plugs in between the outlet and the TV set, and has a display of the AC current used. If the current quickly goes up beyond what is reasonable, I can shut off the power immediately (usually on a power strip that I use).

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 Post subject: Re: Philco 48-1000 Complete - how to restore?
PostPosted: Feb Sun 22, 2015 9:38 pm 
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Ok, +1 on Lee's comment about testing new caps. Don't bother testing old caps but many of us like to double-check new caps before installing them. I guess I live on the hairy edge and trust them but I gather it's pretty frustrating when it happens that a new one is bad.

A variac, you use if you have doubts about whether your rewiring is correct, it'll give you some sort of indication of the error before smoking parts. There are better ways to do same, I've never needed mine. If something is so miswired that parts will smoke, basic resistance checks will find it without heat or sparks or the need to buy an expensive variac.


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