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 Post subject: Motorola 7VT5R Se Rectifier/Ballast Replacement
PostPosted: Jul Wed 16, 2008 1:09 am 
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Joined: Jul Wed 09, 2008 1:40 am
Posts: 346
Location: Orlando, FL
1.)I know I need to replace the Rectifiers with diodes but with what type and where can I find them?
2.) Anyone know where I can find the glass tube version of the ballast? I can't remember the tube # right off the bat. and I'd like to try and avoid "building" one. Or if you have either a metal or glass version I'd be willing to purchase it.
-Shane-


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Jul Wed 16, 2008 1:50 am 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 847
Location: Crystal Bay, NV
I don't think there is a glass version of the ballast. The ballast develops quite a bit of heat (thats why is has all those holes for cooling), and I doubt if a glass envelope would disipate that much heat.

Maybe you can buy a used ballast from somebody, but its really not too hard to repair the old one. If only one section is burned out, it is easy to add a power resistor to the bottom of the chassis. If several sections are burned out, open up the can and stuff it with new power resistors.

Note that the resistor values shown on schematics are "cold" values and the ballast changes resistance as it get hot. The best method for calculating the resistance is to add up the voltage rating of all the tubes in a "string" and subtract that from 117.
The string current should be 300ma, so divide that by .3 to get the resistor value. For the ballast resistor used to limit the surge current in the B+ supply, you can use the cold value or a little higher.

Good news on the diodes: I have used whatever I had on hand (1N4002, 1N4004, etc) and some I pulled from other junk. All seem to work fine, because the selenium rectifier has very low ratings (150ma or so).

======
Ron


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Jul Wed 16, 2008 3:42 am 
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Joined: Jul Wed 09, 2008 1:40 am
Posts: 346
Location: Orlando, FL
Ron,
Let me know where I need to send money for the diodes. As for the ballast, I'm a newbie, and the nite I plugged the TV in (before I recapped...dumb) my roomates said that the ballast lite up and went out. I was watching the picture tube at the time and they showed me the ballast on the camera phone after about 10 sec. what happened. I heard a crackling and high pitched sound and immediatly unplugged it (the picture tube never lite). I have since recapped most of it, and I can't wait to watch it work. If you have a procedure for restuffing the metal ballast I'd like to take that route.

-Shane-

P.S. I am 22 and studying for a business degree so most of my peers think I'm nuts spending my money on this rather than on an iPhone or laptop. Oh well my goal is to watch the evening news on a pre-war projection TV when I can afford one.
:roll:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Jul Thu 17, 2008 4:33 am 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 1796
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
First . . We have all earned our TV education by blowing things up, getting shocked and other fun moments. This is why we like working on these things in the first place.

If you advertise around someone here may have a junk set and give/sell you a ballast. You can use fixed, wire wound resistors although they really don’t provide the regulation the ballast was designed to. It you have the service literature (SAM’s) they will usually give you the resistance values so you can make your own.

Maybe you can repair the burned out ballast with a little brass crimp. It may be that only one resistance of several is open and you can keep most of the old ballast. We TV people never throw anything away no matter how fried it is.

Ballast’s use iron wire which can’t be soldered, they run hot and the wire usually glows dull red. They will work this way in open air for ever most of the time. They act as voltage regulators and were a cheap way to do the job.

I myself always plug stuff in and get it past that first big fire before restoration. Most of the time I win but not every time.

Diodes as mentioned above cost about 25 cents each and should be available at a radio Shack. I myself keep the selenium’s in place if they are not dead. I am restoring a late 40’s set which still has its original’s which are rectifying fine and look cool.

If you can get a Variac (variable transformer) you can power up slowly and avoid “shock and awe”. Electronics surplus stores often have these.

As for pre-war projection sets I don’t think any consumer versions were made but the post war projection sets are actually quite neat. I use a Scott 6T-11 projection set to watch morning news often and I quite like it.

You can find the 6T-11 on the web.

Projection = X-Ray’s, really high voltage, more tubes, harder to get parts and all the satisfaction of watching the thing work.

Jim


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Jul Thu 17, 2008 5:36 am 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 847
Location: Crystal Bay, NV
If you don't have it you will need Sam's folder 83-6 for this set. If you are near a big city library, see if they have it. The cost of copying it will be about two dollars. From the schematic you can see how the ballast is wired and, therefore, test it to see which parts are working or not.

Where are you located? Your ID doesn't say.

I think you have picked a great set to restore. I have two of the 7VT2 sets with the bakelite cabinets and modern (for the time) design. As far as function goes (tv theory) these sets are a little harder to understand and troubleshoot than some of the other sets of this period because Motorola really squeezed a lot of performance out of a minimal number of tubes and minimum weight. They did this by clever circuity and smart engineering. Not everybody appreciates this, but I do.

Let's talk about this more after you know just what is wrong with the ballast you have. I would not try to run this set until you have determined that there are no shorts and that the filament circutry is all OK. This requires lots of ohm meter testing and reference to the schematic.

There have been some good topics started on this site which are aimed a person just like you. They cover what tools you need and what theory you should learn. Go slow.
=====
Ron


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Jul Fri 18, 2008 4:17 am 
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Joined: Jul Wed 09, 2008 1:40 am
Posts: 346
Location: Orlando, FL
Jim... I meant the old mirror in lid types like in the FDR mansion but its all good. I need to take the ballast apart to see what is salvagable. According to my schematc (ebay purchase...not a SAMS):
Pins 5-1 37 ohms
3-4 200
5-7 105
5-2 105

Does that sound right? I bought it from a guy that said it was a 7vt5r schematic but it is a photocopy and doesn't say which chassis. Not a huge deal though due to mine being near original except for 3 caps. I just replaced one for one using the gator-clip and wire method.

I'll pull out my multimeter when I get back in town Monday.

Ron...I'm in Florida. Does the 7vt2 use the same chassis? I think mine is stamped TS-18 if I recall. I sorta wish it was a TS-4 series....they look simpler from below to my untrained eye.

-Shane-


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Jul Fri 18, 2008 6:11 am 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 847
Location: Crystal Bay, NV
The TS-4 and the TS-18 are very close. The TS-18 has a 12 channel (2-13) tuner, and the TS-4 has only 8 channel positions. The complexity is really the same, but there are small changes here and there. Sets 7VT1, 7VT2 and 7VT5 are identical except for the cabinets (wood, bakelite, and vinyl-like fabric, respectively). The TS-18 chassis was used in some other models too. I have not seen this set with a "r" suffix, so I don't know if this a variation on the 7VT5 or what.

For the 7VT5, the ballast values are: 111 (pins 6-7) 132 (pins 6-2), 200 (pins 3-4) and 37 ohms (pins 6-1) . These values are shown for chassis TS-18 and TS-18A. However, there may be production changes, so your 105 values may be OK too. Note that my schematic shows pin 6 for the common connection and you say pin 5. Could be a production change.

The 200 and 37 ohm values can be replaced with 10 watt resitors and the values can be within 20%. For the 111 and 132 values the wattage should be 15 or more. Try to be within 10% of these vaues. For example, two 10 watt 220 ohm resistors in parallel would give 110 ohms at 20 watts.

If either the 200 or the 37 ohm section are burned out, I would just use a power resistor on the bottom of the set. If its the others (used in the filament circuits), I would open up the crimps on the bottom of the ballast and examine the wires. Sometimes I have crimped a broken wire with a piece of brass, and it held OK. As previously mentioned, the ballast wires cannot be soldered. It gets too hot for solder anyway.
=====
Ron


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Jul Fri 18, 2008 3:16 pm 
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Joined: Jul Wed 09, 2008 1:40 am
Posts: 346
Location: Orlando, FL
Ron,
Like I said I'm a newbie so let me try to explain what I see on my schematic (I'm still learning how to read these correctly). On the schematic The ballast is marked M5. From mains it breaks into 2 sections. First section has 37 ohm in series with C1 140MFD and selenium M1. Selenium M2 is connected between C1 and M1 to the ground. From M1, 200 ohm is connected between C2A 120MFD and C3A 100MFD and continues on from there into the Vert. size control and video Amp section. The second section breaks into 2 series circuits each beginning with 105 ohms and then what I assume are the filaments. They each have a tube designation V1-V14 and the symbols look sorta like 7--^--2. The 2 circuits then come back together terminating through two grounds connected through the picture tube (Pins 14 and 1) and C84 1000MMF.

If you have a fax I can fax you my shematic later today.

Whats the worst case scenario if I get the resistances wrong?

-Shane-


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Jul Fri 18, 2008 4:44 pm 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 847
Location: Crystal Bay, NV
You have it right. There are two strings with a current flow of 300ma each. They join at the picture tube filament, because that tube requires a 600ma flow. The 105 ohm resistors are there because the sum of the voltages in the strings do not add up to the required 117 line voltage (mains? What are you? a Limey? - no offense intended-) Anyway, the resistors suck up about 35 volts. (calculate the wattage disipated: 35 x .3 = 10.5 watts). The 2^7 symbols are showing you the connections to each tube: e.g. pins 2 and 7. These connections are shown together because they would otherwise clutter the schematic, and they have nothing else to do but heat the tubes.

The 37 and 200 values are not critical at all. 50 and 180 would be fine. I would try to match the 105 values more closely. However, I think the true values should be 125. Note that the ballast resistor changes value as it heat up. You can calculate the reguired resistance by adding up the tube voltages, subtract from 117 and divide that by (.3 = the current). I get 123 ohms. Since you need over 10 watts, use 20.

To be honest, you should really start on a radio restoration because there is much in common with tv, and you are much more likely to be successful and gain competence. I also urge you to read one of the many books that were printed around 1949 that explain radio and television theory and repair. I also urge you to get together with some old-timer like me for a few hours. Unless you are in Key West, there is likely somebody not to far away who would be willing to guide you in the right directions. I'm about 2500 miles away.
=====
Ron


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Jul Fri 18, 2008 10:55 pm 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 1796
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Shane

Most of us learned our various trades from tinkering with TV’s and Radios back when we were young (1950’s for me), so I always encourage the jump in and try it training method. When we started these same TV sets and radios were junk and nobody cared if you messed it up and tossed it back in the trash where we probably got it in the first place.

Now it is collectable and valuable so we all need to go with more caution.

The prewar mirror-in-the-lid sets have become really valuable these days, noting I gave an RCA TRK-12 away free in the early 1970’s (dumb de dumb dumb), although another guy gave it to me free.

OK the ballast . . . . Listen to Ron because he had done all this before. Most ballast’s are in a metal can with vent holes which and has four crimps to the octal tube socket type base. Usually you can pry the crimps out (no more than necessary) carefully and pull off the can (carefully). I would first look for the burned out spot and maybe you can fix it by splicing the wires. The wire will be iron which can’t be soldered. I have used a little brass crimp like the sleeve part of a crimp on spade lug. Pull off the plastic and modify it with some good small diagonal cutters and use it to splice the open ends of the ballast wires. Maybe the break will be near an end. They usually spot weld the iron wire to other wire which is then soft soldered into the pins of the base.

I keep lots of little forceps close at hand (available from electronic stores) for grabbing tiny wires and small parts.

The ballast provided regulation for the B+ as well as the filament string. And took up the slack as the tube filaments usually didn’t add up to 110 volts and line voltage usually varied from 110 to 120 volts.

I have splice repaired these 20 years ago and know of them still working.

I would carefully check for the short that blew it out in the first place. After you identify the open resistance use the schematic to trace the part of the circuit it feeds and hope you fixed the short.

The SAM’s will possibly list some of the substitute ballasts and you can advertise and may get lucky.

If you can get hold of a Variac you can slowly raise the line voltage and watch for glowing parts.

Jim


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Jul Sat 19, 2008 4:16 am 
Member

Joined: Jul Wed 09, 2008 1:40 am
Posts: 346
Location: Orlando, FL
I tend to jump into things and teach myself along the way (I had a 77' MGB that sat for 15 yrs. I troubleshot the electrical system by myself with nothing more than a wiring schematic, multimeter and my own intuition. Had it running in two weeks). On TV's and radios, I already know a bit of thoery on how the different components work, the trouble comes from some of the notation on the schematic and understanding what different whole sections actually do such as the Sync. clipper or what 1st,2nd,3rd Video IF means and how all the sections interact with on another. So bear with me I promise not to cut any wires or replace componants without triple checking values and locations first.

Like I said before I've already capped the TV less the electrolytics, diodes and ballast. I was very carefull to trade apples for apples so to speak.
I'll check the respective resistances in the ballast when I get back. If the values are off I'll pull the can apart and try to crimp wires and go from there.

I appreciate all the help everyone has been providing so far. Before, the ballast was the most daunting thing for me to figure out (until I find another problem :roll: )but now it seems like cake.

And Ron no I'm not a limey, the years of MGB's TR's and mini have all taken a toll on my vocabulary. You'll really hate it when I start talking in VW :D

-Shane-

P.S.
On another note I bought a Westinghouse Radio Model WR-179 today.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Jul Sat 19, 2008 3:35 pm 
Member

Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 847
Location: Crystal Bay, NV
OK Shane. Glad we put put that Limey problem to rest. As an former owner of several English cars, I know what you mean.

The ballast resistance will not be "off". Either a section is burned out (open) or it isn't.

You say that you replaced the capacitors. Did you replace the 6000 volt ones? They are the big, fat waxey ones (5 total).

You will need to replace the electrolytic capacitors unless you have the equipment to "restore" them gradually. Even if you do, most of us would prefer to put new ones in.

One reason to replace the selenium rectifiers with silicon diodes is the poisonous gas that selenium can make if it goes up in smoke. I have not seen this happen, but that possibilty is still on my mind. You can leave the old rectifiers in place and just add a small terminal strip for attaching the new diodes.
=======
Ron


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Jul Sat 19, 2008 6:51 pm 
Member

Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 125
Location: Palm Bay, Fl. 32907
AMPERITE made a glass tube replacement for the Motorola ballast tube, P/N 17A47030. This tube was filled with an inert gas to maximize heat transfer. Not sure if this Part # is for the TS-4 or TS-18 (check your part #).

Try this tube dealer:

http://www.vacuumtubesinc.com/ballast.html


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Jul Sun 20, 2008 4:20 am 
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Joined: Jul Wed 09, 2008 1:40 am
Posts: 346
Location: Orlando, FL
Ron,
What cars did you own?

As far as the caps, yes I replaced the 6000v ones. I used skinny white ones I believe they were mylar. Similar in construction to the yellow mylars I used for the other caps in the set (didn't make the mistake and use ceramics, learned that on here :D ). All were bought from justradios.com. I also bought electrolytics at the same time and have had to triple one of them up in parallel to make the values work (I don't have the knowledge or equipment to restore those). My order got screwed up so I have to order a couple more electrolytics and a yellow mylar to finish the recap job.

A far as the seleniums, they are still hooked up untill I get the diodes but I plan to leave them in place and just disconnect them.

The ballast, I'll just construct a little test light and see if it is all connected properly I guess.

John...If I find my ballast to be toast I'll check out that link. Thank you for the info.

Gentleman, I fly back to Florida tomorrow so as soon as work settles down I'll get to work on the TV.
I'll take all you've taught me and get back with you on the results.

Thanks,
-Shane-


P.S. I just won a Teletone TV-149 on ebay, any experience with one of these?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Jul Sun 20, 2008 12:54 pm 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 769
Location: Indian Land, SC, USA, 29707
Shane,
It is great to see somebody like myself on here that started gaining an interest and tinkering with old vintage TVs and electronics at a young age, when most peers are into much more modern stuff. I'm 41 now, but worked on my first old TV in 1988 when I was about just under 22 years old. It was an RCA model 8TS30 from 1948 (a 10" table model in large cabinet) that has 30 tubes and is a bit more complex than your Motorola, and my second TV was a Mororola similar to yours, a model VT-71M, a 7" electrostatic with the 7-channel version tuner. I have worked on about 3 or 4 similar Motorolas over the years, one being in a bakelite cabinet with the 12 channel tuner, and another one (the only one that I still have) that is the 8" version (with rarer, slightly larger picture tube) in a leatherette portable cabinet. These sets can be quite great performers when working properly. They do tend to display some lines at the top of the picture more easily than many other vintage sets that are some modern signal coding at the very top part of the picture for closed captioning or VIR (automatic color correction) used in some modern sets.
***I also have worked on the Tele-Tone model TV-149 for somebody about 2 years ago**, it is a great little set as well. If I remember correctly, this set uses tube rectifiers instead of selenium, or possibly a combination. One thing unique to this set compared to many other 7" sets is that the plate voltage supply for the vertical output tube comes from a voltage tripler circuit to provide the extra voltage required by this circuit over the "main B+" supply. Many other sets, such as the Motorolas, use a voltage divider made up of many resistors off of the high voltage supply (for the CRT deflection plates/anode) to supply the higher B+ voltage required for the vertical output amp circuit. The tripler works the same as a voltage doubler circuit as used for the main B+ supply in most 7" sets with additional "section" of rectifier and filter cap. I remember that the tripler rectifier section is a 25Z6 tube (double diode tube with both diodes in parallel to act as one diode with higher current capability). For some reason, I just barely was able to get enough vertical deflection in this set even with all new capacitors and kown good resistors and tubes in the tripler and vertical circuits, so i think this tripler circuit just barely provides enough voltage for the vert. output compared to the way it is done in other sets. The Motorolas usually have more than adequate vertical and horizontal deflection, but the vertical linearity can tend to be slightly compressed at the bottom/stretched at the top, but using the white tubular 6000V caps from Just Radios work quite well for this, sometimes using ceramic or other types of tubulars have been what gave me the poorer results in the past.
Earlier in my TV restorations, I had replaced all wax/paper caps but not electrolytics unless they were known to be bad, or suspect to be bad, causing problems. Back 20 years ago, many of the can type electrolytics still filtered well, however, now I replace all electrolytics as well in all sets, especially after one time experiencing having a can cap start spewing out its insides after working perfectly for several hours. I had previously just checked to see if any of the cans were getting hot after a short, and then a longer period of time of operation, and if it passed this test, they stayed in. Now I think it is worthwhile to just change all of them, usually I can find ways to get most of them under the chassis, and leave the original cans in place without having to restuff them, but this is more difficult in more compact sets.
Right now I'm working on another RCA 8TS30 that I had some problems with working on about 4 years ago, and now getting back to it. Believe it or not, the problem that made me shove it aside to work on other stuff instead was a lot simpler to fix than I thought it would be. I had tried to adjust the tuner oscillator coils to try to get the fine tuning range to be correct, and a slug came out of the coil I was adjusting for a certain channel (4), and this messed up all the other channels as well, at least on the low band (channels 2-6). I thought I needed a big soldering iron to get the tuner shield off to be able to get to this coil to get the slug back in it, but it turned out that now as I looked at it, there was a bolt and nut instead of solder holding in the one end of the tuner shield that I thought was soldered! How dumb can I be! Anyway I got the set to tune now, but now I have to see if I can align it properly to have the sound and pic tune in within range of the fine tuning control. This set actually has a separate sound IF amp section, most later sets (including 7" Motorolas and Tele-Tones) use "intercarrier sound", which amplifies the sound IF after the video detector, rather than right off the tuner. The 8TS30 having the separate sound IF channel is one of the reason that it requires so many tubes. I now have to see if the sound comes in at a point where the pic looks good (I have yet to reinstall the picture tube, or I may even try to use a scope on the video signal to avoid putting in the CRT until the end), and if it doesn't, it will be best for me to align the sound IF to come in at the right portion of the fine tuning for best pic. The fine tuning for sound on these sets is quite critical compared to sets that use intercarrier sound, which include about all sets after 1950 or so.
What part of Florida are you in? I wonder if I might have been near the area before, I have been to several parts of Florida (Miami, Ft. Lauderdale, Boynton Beach, West Palm Beach, Cape Canaveral, Cocoa Beach, Orlando, Tampa, St. Petersburg, Bonita Springs, Daytona Beach, St. Augustine, and Jacksonville to name a few cities). Dave


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Jul Sun 20, 2008 5:07 pm 
Member

Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 847
Location: Crystal Bay, NV
Shawn,
I had a 1957 Hillman Minx convertable and a 1958 Ford Prefect. Overhauled both. Eventually, learned to stay away from British cars. In those years British cars used the Lucas electrical components. Lucas has been called the prince of automotive darkness. I liked the little Hillman despite it's frequent breakdowns.

Electrolytics do not have to be very accurate. If the schematic calls for 80uF, you could use 100uF. I usually like to error on the high side, but the usual tolerance is -20% to +40%.

I looked at the glass ballast reference, but couldn't tell if this would work or not. One tube tester chart showed the glass ballast to have 5 sections, and your ballast has only four. The total power disipation of the ballast is about 30 watts. I suppose that a glass ballast could handle this, since its about the same as a 30 watt light bulb. Anybody out there who knows more about this?

I have one TV-149 that I have not yet restored. Most of my tv stuff is saved for the winter.
=======
Ron


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Jul Thu 24, 2008 2:32 am 
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Joined: Jul Wed 09, 2008 1:40 am
Posts: 346
Location: Orlando, FL
All right well I tested my ballast tonight and as long as I was reading the pins correctly I think its ok (you read clockwise with pin 1 being at 1 o'clock in relation to the locating tab right?). Based on that above assumption here are the readouts from my multimeter:
6-7 104 ohms
6-2 132 ohms
3-4 205 ohms
6-1 37 ohms

So that is close with what Ron said. This raises the question though of what my schematic says which is quite different (I explained it in an earlier post).
So my question now is do I have the right schematic or the wrong tube? My chassis is stamped TS-18 and near the ballast is stamped:
"Use Ballast# 17A485459" If it helps the build date is Aug. 4 1949

-Shane-


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Jul Thu 24, 2008 5:01 am 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 847
Location: Crystal Bay, NV
Lucky you -- looks like you have a prefectly good ballast and it's the correct one for your set.

I don't know what I did with my Sam's folder for this set, and the Rider schematics are not easy to scan. Maybe somebody else can get you a copy of the Sam's. Sounds like you don't have the right one now.
=======
Ron


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Jul Thu 24, 2008 5:23 am 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 1382
Location: Manitowoc, WI USA
I have the Wallace TeleAides I can scan...

_________________
We improve things by making them worse...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Jul Thu 24, 2008 5:06 pm 
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Joined: Jul Wed 09, 2008 1:40 am
Posts: 346
Location: Orlando, FL
Well that is good to hear. If you guys have a correct schematic you can scan PM me at: shane.noble@hotmail.com
I'd really appreciate it

-Shane-


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