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 Post subject: Re: shop safety sticky?
PostPosted: Jun Sat 15, 2019 4:43 pm 
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Location: Gretna, Nebraska
John Bartley wrote:
Marcc wrote:
processhead wrote:
I think that it is relevant to acknowledge that people coming into this hobby come from a variety of diverse backgrounds and skill levels.

Some have practically no background in the use of tools, power equipment, and safe work practices, while others have extensive backgrounds using many types of equipment and tools occupationally or in other hobbies.

This diversity of skill levels is what makes it hard to design a one-size-fits-all type of universal training that is relevant for everyone.

Many organizations recognize this and simply design training for those knowing almost nothing and just accept that there will be some who are already way up the learning curve. Those folks with prior experience who participate in this type of entry level training will just roll their eyes and tune out while they wait for something more interesting to come along that they don't already know.

Other organizations may have more sophisticated training programs will be structured with multiple levels of targeted training for beginner, intermediate, and advanced students.

I think its possible to present the various safety/risk issues in a objective non-emotional way as well as methods and practices to avoid potential hazards. As is always the case, it is up to the individual take and follow advice.


Really this goes to my point, that in order to do certain things one needs to explore the avenues that will lead you to where you need to be. As noted with the Mens Shed we have a lot of people that have retired & want to pursue hobbies totally alien to what they did in their working life. My point is that a Mens Shed is just one that has a range of informal skills training in a certain areas. Some educational facilities also offer this both from formal education, to the one I did recently that was not aimed that way. Some might just like frustration & take up Golf.

Marc


Ok people ... pull your head out.

This is a hobby. This forum is filled with hobbyists, almost all of whom post anonymously. Quit trying to organise everyone else's anonymous hobby efforts and go organise your garden shed ..... you'll have better success.


Totally agree, it is a hobby forum for the most part.

Folks that are new to the hobby come here asking for help to learn about the hobby and how to do a variety of things. Most of us are more than happy to share what we know to help them have a successful outcome fixing what-ever.

While sharing technical information, why would it be any different pointing the relevant hazards that might accompany a particular repair task?

I fully agree that anything can be taken to extremes and those who know me know my opinions about Nanny-State attitudes.

Still, this is not a risk-free hobby, and when there are reasonable precautions that need to be taken, why not share that information?

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 Post subject: Re: shop safety sticky?
PostPosted: Jun Sat 15, 2019 5:14 pm 
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processhead wrote:
Totally agree, it is a hobby forum for the most part.

Folks that are new to the hobby come here asking for help to learn about the hobby and how to do a variety of things. Most of us are more than happy to share what we know to help them have a successful outcome fixing what-ever.

While sharing technical information, why would it be any different pointing the relevant hazards that might accompany a particular repair task?

I fully agree that anything can be taken to extremes and those who know me know my opinions about Nanny-State attitudes.

Still, this is not a risk-free hobby, and when there are reasonable precautions that need to be taken, why not share that information?


There ya' go !! Yes, we agree.

The notion that someone would post that we should be reviewing stickies and assuming liabilities for other's safety by having a "read this first or don't post here" is idiotic in a hobby forum filled with anonymous independent adults.

However .... when you see someone doing something obviously unsafe, sure ... point it out, in the thread, in real time. That's where the best lessons are learned.
Trying to force things like polarised plugs, three wire cords, and other foolish changes in engineering on fifty year old sets that have yet to kill anyone .... and then put crap like that into a sticky and call it realistic ??? Bovine effluent from the tin foil hat crowd.


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 Post subject: Re: shop safety sticky?
PostPosted: Jun Sat 15, 2019 5:56 pm 
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Location: Port Orchard, Wa 98366
This is an Open Forum :roll:

Ideas on how to set up a workbench is ALWAYS WELCOME, period.
Good plan of action for Safety!!!
I don't have that safety net, but now I will think about that, and maybe design something similar.
Thanks for being open about your solution.
To other posters, Always be kind to a fellow hobbyist, it builds up our forum.
We are here to Help.

So!
I live in a Mobile Home that Has circuit breakers that have needed replacing. The wiring isn't up to my requirements for a workbench, so I have to limit my load to the bench.
Rather than put each room on a separate breaker the home has one breaker for two rooms. So if I have a small heater in the living room on then I know it effects my availible load to the bench. I even have an RCA Line monitor to help. What is really bad is my voltage is normally 122v but it dips down when my central Forced air furnace kicks in. And will go down to about 115v, which is quite a drop. And of course they didn't use standard wall sockets, but these pieces of junk.

Image
So every time I insert a plug into one of the outlets the wall moves. Drywall if you can call it that, is about 1/8".

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 Post subject: Re: shop safety sticky?
PostPosted: Jun Sat 15, 2019 10:44 pm 
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Location: Powell River BC Canada
A constant voltage transformer (CVT) will keep the bench voltage to about 1 %
of what you need within a +/- swing in input.

I keep one under the bench, and when I need one of the variable sources to hold
the output constant, I plug it into the CVT.

(The variable/isolated supplies are Glenayre PS98, and have 0-135 volt AC 3 Amp,
and 0- 12 or 24 volt, AC or DC outputs)
Attachment:
Sola CVT  VE7ASO.jpg
Sola CVT VE7ASO.jpg [ 325.02 KiB | Viewed 355 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: shop safety sticky?
PostPosted: Jun Sun 16, 2019 12:20 am 
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You can't compare woodworking safety to what forum members do here. If B+ bites you, your chances of avoiding serious injury will be a near certainty (in 99% of the electronics that members work on). If a power woodworking tool bites you, your chance of avoiding serious injury is not good.


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 Post subject: Re: shop safety sticky?
PostPosted: Jun Sun 16, 2019 2:03 am 
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Scott wrote:
You can't compare woodworking safety to what forum members do here. If B+ bites you, your chances of avoiding serious injury will be a near certainty (in 99% of the electronics that members work on). If a power woodworking tool bites you, your chance of avoiding serious injury is not good.


Nobody was! It was merely an idea presented by me as a day set aside for some sort of safety discussion. We have thousands of threads about safety already, so safety is already "out there".

https://www.google.com/search?domains=antiqueradios.com&ei=OZQFXaKZA4jI-gSTraigBw&q=safety+-caps+-capacitor+-cap+-glass+-bitcoin+site%3Aantiqueradios.com&oq=safety+-caps+-capacitor+-cap+-glass+-bitcoin+site%3Aantiqueradios.com&gs_l=psy-ab.12...76863.78485..80320...0.0..0.160.781.0j5......0....1..gws-wiz.dmHqbDHxvLQ


Just trying to positively contribute to the discussion without an iota of heavy handedness, comparison or being a Chicken Little.....

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 Post subject: Re: shop safety sticky?
PostPosted: Jun Sun 16, 2019 2:32 am 
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Scott wrote:
You can't compare woodworking safety to what forum members do here. If B+ bites you, your chances of avoiding serious injury will be a near certainty (in 99% of the electronics that members work on). If a power woodworking tool bites you, your chance of avoiding serious injury is not good.


That's an interesting comment. I have gradually been plugging away at checking all of the mains powered tools, be they woodworking, or metal and various other mains powered stuff in The Mens Shed, that includes cables. This is a CYA exercise related to our "Tag & Test regulations mentioned before. We actually cannot sell a mains (utility) device with a cable on it unless it has been "tested" and that is having a massive effect on charities as this has a cost impost, if done commercially.

We, like them, get stuff donated "in good faith" and crap where they are avoiding dumping fees. A lot of this stuff is actually dangerous. I am the Bunny that sees this stuff and due to this the Shed rules are quite clear. "No tag: No use". It is not unusual to find serious mechanical damage, cut wires, cables with cuts into the core wire, rotten rubber, damaged plugs, one with three wire plugs & a two wire cable, wires inverted i.e. Neutral & Active different on each end, Neutral wired to ground & that's why the device / cable did not work(???) Several machines like drill presses have been found to have, usually by meddling:no earth/ground.

This is of course why GFCI's & Regulations happen. They save the living an inordanant load of paperwork, stress, & inconvenience filling out death certificates & incident reports, consuming volumes of time that can be used more constructively: Golf?

Marc


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 Post subject: Re: shop safety sticky?
PostPosted: Jun Sun 16, 2019 2:49 am 
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John Bartley wrote:

The notion that someone would post that we should be reviewing stickies and assuming liabilities for other's safety by having a "read this first or don't post here" is idiotic in a hobby forum filled with anonymous independent adults.

However .... when you see someone doing something obviously unsafe, sure ... point it out, in the thread, in real time. That's where the best lessons are learned.
Trying to force things like polarised plugs, three wire cords, and other foolish changes in engineering on fifty year old sets that have yet to kill anyone .... and then put crap like that into a sticky and call it realistic ??? Bovine effluent from the tin foil hat crowd.

I couldn't a said it better! :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: shop safety sticky?
PostPosted: Jun Sun 16, 2019 10:59 pm 
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Marcc wrote:
Scott wrote:
You can't compare woodworking safety to what forum members do here. If B+ bites you, your chances of avoiding serious injury will be a near certainty (in 99% of the electronics that members work on). If a power woodworking tool bites you, your chance of avoiding serious injury is not good.


That's an interesting comment. I have gradually been plugging away at checking all of the mains powered tools, be they woodworking, or metal and various other mains powered stuff in The Mens Shed, that includes cables. This is a CYA exercise related to our "Tag & Test regulations mentioned before. We actually cannot sell a mains (utility) device with a cable on it unless it has been "tested" and that is having a massive effect on charities as this has a cost impost, if done commercially.

We, like them, get stuff donated "in good faith" and crap where they are avoiding dumping fees. A lot of this stuff is actually dangerous. I am the Bunny that sees this stuff and due to this the Shed rules are quite clear. "No tag: No use". It is not unusual to find serious mechanical damage, cut wires, cables with cuts into the core wire, rotten rubber, damaged plugs, one with three wire plugs & a two wire cable, wires inverted i.e. Neutral & Active different on each end, Neutral wired to ground & that's why the device / cable did not work(???) Several machines like drill presses have been found to have, usually by meddling:no earth/ground.

This is of course why GFCI's & Regulations happen. They save the living an inordanant load of paperwork, stress, & inconvenience filling out death certificates & incident reports, consuming volumes of time that can be used more constructively: Golf?

Marc


I was comparing to "bite" of a B+ shock to the "Bite" of a blade or cutter making contact with your body, not electrical shock from a power tool. I will take the B+ any day.


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 Post subject: Re: shop safety sticky?
PostPosted: Jun Mon 17, 2019 12:54 am 
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B+ DC can "grab" There are commercial amplifiers with transformers big enough to kill. "That is where the one hand in your pocket" idea came from. The problem is that transformers Isolate you from the supply & as I have seen with welders & such as well as radios The secondaries can happily melt down and provided the current in the primary is not exceeded: The fuses & RCD / GFCI will hold.

I would also expect no protection on a Hot chassis on the DC circuit and I do not intend to test that theory.

Marc


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 Post subject: Re: shop safety sticky?
PostPosted: Jun Mon 17, 2019 2:51 am 
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Joined: Apr Sun 19, 2015 5:25 am
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Location: Tigard, Oregon
Wow.....

I am pretty disappointed with the comments above.

As a noobie, I think it would be great to have a general Safety Sticky thread for people who are new to the hobby like me.

A forum sticky must work differently here than other forums I am a part of. Just judging the comments above, a sticky on this forum must act like a ransomware virus that you MUST BE FORCED TO READ, WITH A QUIZ AT THE END, each and every time you visit the Antique Radio Forum. :shock:

Maybe I don't understand what a sticky thread is here, maybe you don't either.

If a sticky thread here actually works just like any other forum, it is just a pinned thread at the top of a sub-forum section. If this is the case, no one is trying to corral members and forcing them to read anything.

And guess what, you do not have to read it if you do not want to... at all.... not even a little..... Amazing! :wink:

While browsing through the Antique Radio Forum over the years, I see the same safety questions asked over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.

A safety thread sticky would certainly help people like me just getting into the hobby learn about precautions we should take when working on old radios, televisions, test equipment, communications equipment, etc.

I think the point of the sticky got completely lost. I am pretty darn sure the point of this thread was not to scare the living daylights out of people or to tell people how they have to repair or restore a radio, rather to simply inform them. The reader of the thread still decides what is best for them in the end, just like reading any other thread on here.

I don't see why informing someone on a regular repair or restoration thread vs. a sticky should be any different. It is the same information, but a sticky would just be a collection of what members know about safety regarding old electronics.

Again, no one is forcing you to read and conform to what is in the thread. A sticky (as I know them) is just a thread pinned to the top of a sub-forum section for easy reference. That is all. It is not a lecture. It is not a test. It is not an official authority. It is not set in stone. It is simply a thread like any other on here.

I think it would be a good idea to have a fire extinguisher near by, just as an everyday safety device, like houses have smoke detectors. I don't see why one would avoid having a fire extinguisher near by. Yes, the risk of a fire at the work bench is quite low and you would probably never use it, but when you need it you will have it. Yes, the original poster did go heavy on saying it is essential, but I just fail to see why a fire extinguisher is a bad idea as several of you have suggested.

All of the pro's here with their 300+ years experience seem to have all the answers, but seem to frown upon sharing their knowledge unless specifically asked for a very particular piece of information.

If a sticky is started, the theory behind why you should do things over another should be clearly explained. This would help newbies like me understand some safety precautions and make my own decisions based on the explanations given.


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 Post subject: Re: shop safety sticky?
PostPosted: Jun Mon 17, 2019 4:19 am 
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Greetings to the Forum:

As a practical matter, a note of caution about fire extinguishers. Most of the ABC types for home use are dry powder chemical types. If you ever have a radio go up in flames, you will have less damage if you let it burn itself out than you will have if you hit it with a dry powder chemical extinguisher. They make an UNBELIEVABLE mess.

If you need an electronics bench extinguisher, be sure it is a CO2 type. They are less effective, but far less destructive.

Just my $.02 worth, your mileage may differ.

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 Post subject: Re: shop safety sticky?
PostPosted: Jun Mon 17, 2019 5:50 am 
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analog junk collector wrote:
All of the pro's here with their 300+ years experience seem to have all the answers, but seem to frown upon sharing their knowledge unless specifically asked for a very particular piece of information.


Oh I don't think so. You saw the plethora of answers just in this thread, so how can you state that we frown on giving advice? IMO it's just the opposite.

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 Post subject: Re: shop safety sticky?
PostPosted: Jun Mon 17, 2019 8:07 am 
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I draw no difference, as I commercially fix to, the Mens Shed. We both have exposure to the Parliament's Occupational Health & Safety Acts, & the Regulations of Statutory Authorities and Liability if some one is injured. So we cannot afford to be slack.

Home is slightly different. Safety is often ignored, & complacency, as I noted before, tends to come to the fore: If you do not have an understanding of that which you are tampering with, you either have to go find a way of gaining the knowledge, or desist. Some of that knowledge has to be hands on, preferably under supervision, in order to gain proficiency: Trial is one thing: Error can be fatal.

Marc


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 Post subject: Re: shop safety sticky?
PostPosted: Jun Mon 17, 2019 12:57 pm 
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Location: 13 Critchley Avenue, PO Box 36, Monteith Ont, P0K 1P0
analog junk collector wrote:
While browsing through the Antique Radio Forum over the years, I see the same safety questions asked over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.



And time and time again you see the same old wives tales given in response, advice which is not based on any sort of fact. Much of it is based on fear and cannot be supported when examined and questioned closely. Much of it is based on decades of "doing it that way", which is fine for that one person.

As far as basic stuff like "fire extinguishers" and rubber mats underfoot and grounded benches or benches made from wood and not metal, etc, etc, etc ...... most of this is common sense and shouldn't really need to be stickied.

Finally ... no matter how remote the possibility ... the USA is well known for the litigious nature of it's citizens. Giving safety advice opens up the forum owners to some (how much is disputable) liability. If a thread is stickied it's implied that the forum ownership/management supports the advice given therein, and if I was owner/manager, I wouldn't sticky anything that might get me sued.


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 Post subject: Re: shop safety sticky?
PostPosted: Jun Mon 17, 2019 3:11 pm 
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Advice here is usually "In good faith". If there is a risk in that advice someone will comment on it. If there is risk, often the person giving the advice will qualify the statement and give comment on why there is risk.

We have only got to look at some posts on the WEB to see unqualified comment, that carries significant risk. It is the old fixers posting here, who are old, as they know the risks and traps & have avoided them. We watch: We act.

Marc


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