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 Post subject: Reminders When Buying a "Restored" Radio -->> RE-Do It
PostPosted: Aug Tue 14, 2018 4:05 am 
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I had the pleasure to pick up a nice Crosley 9-102.

despite it having a couple tubes in it such as the 7Q7 and the 5AZ4 that I have NEVER seen or heard of before in a set, it is a very nice decorative radio...

...except for the "restoration" that was done.

when I bought it, the seller said that the person who had it before them "restored" it with new capacitors.

well, here is what I found:

1. there was NOT one new capacitor that was soldered to a terminal. the old capacitors were snipped out and the new ones were put in with extremely sloppy "twist leads" and a poor blob of solder on the twist-lead. they were not even close to being a J-lead rework, which I would have had no problem with leaving alone.

2. there were flying leads to the two electrolytics + wire. each lityc was floating in air only being held to the chassis via the ground lead solder blobbed to the chassis. the wires were cut off the original can and soldered to the positive lead of the floating electrolytics. that's great for a transformered set with 300v of B+.

3. the leads on each replaced cap were bent up, crooked, and installed very sloppy, see #1.

4. some capacitors were missing.

5. some capacitors were the wrong value.

6. an IF tube was subbed with a higher gain tube causing the need for de-tuning the IFTs. (that cleared up when the appropriate tube was installed.

7. this set was an absolute mess and an unsafe one with respect to floating electrolytics under the hood.

8. the soldering was sloppy at best too.

perhaps I'm being a self righteous.

I've been specifically called that on this forum, which is fine, but I did not do work that looked like that when I was 10 years old. there is a right way and a wrong way to do something and this definitely was the wrong way.

it was an absolute shame what was done to this extremely nice radio by some kitchen table technician.

with all the above being said, when we get a "restored" radio, my point of the thread is that it is always be necessary to look under the hood and do the following things:

1. re-restore the radio as I am doing now :lol: .

2. bounce EVERYTHING against the schematic.

3. make sure no parts are missing.

4. make sure every part value is correct via the schematic.

5. touch up any unsafe and possible radio-self-destructing "rework".

the term "restored" is an extremely relative term and the quality of the workmanship can be all over the place.

I'm sure most if not all of us on here will look over a set that has already been restored.

if the average non-radio person bought this "restored" radio to use, that would not have been a good thing.

I took no pictures of the bastardization/abortion. I did not want to ever be reminded of it again. I will post pics when I am done.

steve


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Last edited by Dutch Rabbit on Sep Thu 06, 2018 8:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Reminders When Buying a "Restored" Radio
PostPosted: Aug Tue 14, 2018 4:16 am 
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Location: Near Brandon, Iowa
Another example of the fact that there is no objective standard for what constitutes a "restored" radio.
If you don't take any claim of "restoration" (especially a second-hand claim) with a grain of salt in the absence of being given the opportunity to inspect the radio under discussion, you pretty much deserve whatever you end up with.


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 Post subject: Re: Reminders When Buying a "Restored" Radio
PostPosted: Aug Tue 14, 2018 4:20 am 
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and to think, how many "restored" or should I say bastardized sets are out there, are daily driven, and the folks who own them have no clue or have the ability to know the difference.

(head down, head shake)

steve

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 Post subject: Re: Reminders When Buying a "Restored" Radio
PostPosted: Aug Tue 14, 2018 2:16 pm 
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You would not believe some of the knuckle-dragger handiwork that I have cleaned up. How can someone think that they have a good solder joint when there is obvious physical looseness between the two sides?
Solder gun not working? No problem....get some conductive epoxy. Worried about something shorting out? Half a roll of friction tape should do it.

Imagine one of these craftsmen doing a brake job on your car.......

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 Post subject: Re: Reminders When Buying a "Restored" Radio
PostPosted: Aug Tue 14, 2018 3:49 pm 
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Location: Lehigh Valley, Pa
This level of "professionalism" is found in almost every profession out there!!! I love to hear "it has a new motor!!!".... pop the hood open, and it looks like it was literally thrown in place... wires, hoses, parts scattered anyplace they fit and let's not forget the "improved" or "improvised" solutions.... How about the "new" boiler or water heater installs... not a straight or level pipe or connection.... it's out there... sloppy, crummy work is EVERYWHERE!!!!

Jim

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 Post subject: Re: Reminders When Buying a "Restored" Radio
PostPosted: Aug Tue 14, 2018 3:51 pm 
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pixellany wrote:
Imagine one of these craftsmen doing a brake job on your car.......

Probably their day job.

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 Post subject: Re: Reminders When Buying a "Restored" Radio
PostPosted: Aug Tue 14, 2018 8:25 pm 
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aaah, the infamous backyard mechanic and now the infamous saturday afternoon kitchen table radio technician...


steve

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 Post subject: Re: Reminders When Buying a "Restored" Radio
PostPosted: Aug Tue 14, 2018 10:18 pm 
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I've posted this before, and I know the Rabbit has seen it, but for the benefit of newer members; I received this Packard Bell Model 48 from an eBay seller some years back, who stated that the radio worked. Believe it or not, it DID, picking up a few heavily distorted stations. Maybe it was the 750 uF filter caps, or perhaps the two Transistors, and lets not forget the Diode on the right side of the center tube socket. Yup, infamous to a fault, lol!


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 Post subject: Re: Reminders When Buying a "Restored" Radio
PostPosted: Aug Tue 14, 2018 10:55 pm 
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Oh? Well I've seen way... wayyyyyyy too many sets that have had some rather atrocious work done to them. As in stuff just dangling and hanging around in space, like electrolytics and even a transformer that was just stuck inside with nothing holding it in.


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 Post subject: Re: Reminders When Buying a "Restored" Radio
PostPosted: Aug Wed 15, 2018 2:55 am 
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i forgot to add in my first post and i say this as a reminder when getting ANY radio that has a pilot light.

ALWAYS inspect the pilot light socket and the wiring where it goes into the socket and where the wire goes into the chassis.

this radio had crumbling wire going into the pilot lights' sockets. these sockets are chassis grounded for the return path just like the tubes' filaments.

the insulation had a break in it very close to where it goes into the lamp socket. another 1/8 inch or a jolt to remove more insulation, we would have had 6.3v tube filament voltage shorted directly to ground thru the lamp socket.

thankfully, i caught it during first inspection long before power up. that could have been an absolute disaster.

:arrow: always check the wires where they enter the pilot light socket and where they enter the bottom of the chassis thru the chassis hole. crumbling insulation will expose a wire and damage the 6.3v winding of the transformer if it shorts to the lamp socket or the chassis.

pictures are coming in a week or so. i am awaiting a few 450v electrolytics. i don't want to waste my 500 volt ones since this radio only surges to 375/350 before coming down to 250/188 on the two filters.

steve

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 Post subject: Re: Reminders When Buying a "Restored" Radio
PostPosted: Aug Wed 15, 2018 3:37 am 
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Every profession, trade and hobby has the good, bad and ugly.

If we wanted to, we could develop defined standards for various types or levels of restoration. It would be work. I've help write ASTM standards, and been involved in long discussions about one sentence. However, the end result is worth the effort if people use it. For example, if someone needs a Property Condition Assessment, I helped write the E2018 standard. All they need to do is tell people that they want a PCA prepared according to the E2018 Standard on a building at a certain address. Many people know and use the standard. The same with the E2018 standard for Phase I Environmental Site Assessments which I've helped revise. ASTM has task groups made up of a balance of Users and Providers. For radios, the Users would be radio buyers and the Providers would be radio restorers. We could even make it an ASTM standard.

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 Post subject: Re: Reminders When Buying a "Restored" Radio
PostPosted: Aug Wed 15, 2018 3:45 am 
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FStephenMasek wrote:
However, the end result is worth the effort if people use it.

Exactly; "IF".

Since shadetree mechanics and radio restorers aren't held to government standards though, I'm afraid that'll never happen. Oh, maybe with a certain segment of responsible hobbyists, such as our regular members, but for the average yard sale flipper who just wants to get his eBay fodder "working", don't count on it.

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 Post subject: Re: Reminders When Buying a "Restored" Radio
PostPosted: Aug Wed 15, 2018 4:03 am 
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I got a Grunow 5T at an antique radio auction, as-is. No claim of restoration.
Inside, it was mostly recapped with orange drops, but with the j-wire joint. The common positive electrolytic was replaced with two units, but with wire nuts!
There was still one paper cap, the one from the plate of the 6F6 to ground. It fell out when I touched it, but it may have been the cause of the open primary of the output transformer. This was probably beyond the capability of the last one who had his hand in it.
The sneaky folks at Grunow decided to bring out the voice coil leads to the secondary terminals of the output transformer instead of a terminal strip.
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 Post subject: Re: Reminders When Buying a "Restored" Radio
PostPosted: Aug Wed 15, 2018 4:32 am 
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OK, I'm going to plead ignorance here. What is a J-lead or J-wire connection? I searched the forum, but the search function ignored the "J", so nothing meaningful. I Googled both terms and found J-lead refers to surface mount components.

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 Post subject: Re: Reminders When Buying a "Restored" Radio
PostPosted: Aug Wed 15, 2018 5:35 am 
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J-hook.

Image

As Paul says, sometimes it can be the only option when...
http://www.antiqueradios.com/forums/vie ... 0#p1319860


Watch: PACE Basic Soldering Lesson 5 - "Hook and Pierced Terminals" 1:19
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sN3V8hMiUb4

Greg.


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 Post subject: Re: Reminders When Buying a "Restored" Radio
PostPosted: Aug Wed 15, 2018 7:17 am 
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I know some purists frown on j-hooking, but that was a standard factory-approved method back in the day. It's preferable to breaking old tube sockets or burning wires and other components to ashes trying to get them unsoldered from ancient terminals with masses of wiring all twisted together. Some of those old sets were put together by either sadists or people with OCD regarding how many turns of wire through a terminal constituted a "secure" connection. There are a lot of old TVs where j-hooking is really the only practical option, since they were never meant to be disassembled.


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 Post subject: Re: Reminders When Buying a "Restored" Radio
PostPosted: Aug Wed 15, 2018 7:39 am 
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guyonearth wrote:
Some of those old sets were put together by either sadists or people with OCD regarding how many turns of wire through a terminal constituted a "secure" connection.

OMG tell me about it! You'd think the damn radio was going into a combat zone the way they "secured" the leads to the tube solder pins, or terminal strip lugs.

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 Post subject: Re: Reminders When Buying a "Restored" Radio
PostPosted: Aug Wed 15, 2018 3:33 pm 
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In many cases its not necessary or useful to j-hook a terminal strip.
Just stick the new wire through and solder properly with modern
60-40 solder. If you have to clean off the wires from a terminal for some reason,
yes, hook the wires so they don't fall out during soldering.

Tight mechanical fastening is not now, and never was, important, IF using
good 63-37 or 60-40 solder properly.

Its better to solder well without a mechanical fastening than what I have seen
too much ... including three factory joints in my RCA CT-100 color tv: a wire
wrapped around a terminal lug with NO SOLDER at all.

My prime directive is to DON'T DESTROY THE TUBE SOCKET PINS! Also,
if you've got one of those horrible 42 wafer (OK, a small exaggeration) bandswitches
in a boatanchor ... ANY method of replacing parts that is SAFE TO WHAT ELSE IS THERE
is OK. I have several special solder gun tips with bendable wires insulated with
thick Teflon sleeves so I can safely solder down below the nest .... and if necessary, I'll
just tack solder carefully. The SP-600 and SX-88 come to mind. And to cut old wires
in the nest, I find small cuticle scissors from the drugstore just the thing ... even if I
only get three or four cuts before they self-destruct.


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 Post subject: Re: Reminders When Buying a "Restored" Radio
PostPosted: Aug Wed 15, 2018 5:21 pm 
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dtvmcdonald wrote:

My prime directive is to DON'T DESTROY THE TUBE SOCKET PINS! Also,
if you've got one of those horrible 42 wafer (OK, a small exaggeration) bandswitches
in a boatanchor ... ANY method of replacing parts that is SAFE TO WHAT ELSE IS THERE
is OK.

OMG, NOW you tell me, lol!
Just finished restoring a FADA 711, and in my zeal to unwrap a curly-Q, managed to destroy the wafer type tube socket. This resulted in having to draw a picture of where each lead went, unsoldering them all, removing the broken socket, replacing with another, then soldering everything back.

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 Post subject: Re: Reminders When Buying a "Restored" Radio
PostPosted: Aug Wed 15, 2018 6:51 pm 
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OK, that clears it up for me. Thanks. I find that what I use the most is the coil (quig?). I like it because it avoids desoldering the whole joint, makes it easier to trial fit the component, and easier to remove for whatever reason. I use a 1mm diameter screwdriver to wrap the wire around.


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