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 Post subject: Philco 46-200 Restore Or Scrap out?
PostPosted: Jun Sun 09, 2019 5:21 pm 
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Location: Chicago IL
Hello all,

I have this philco 46-200. This is a set that I had working and everythng but at some point it was improperly stored and it got very much mistreated to the point ofruin. The cabinet is perfect but the chassis isnt. Here is a list of the things it needs for it to be "perfect" again.

Speaker
Dial
Dial pointer
IF can (its dented)
New antenna
Back Cover
Knobs
Some tubes

Image
Image

Do you guys think it's worth messing with? I was gonna offer it up for parts but I like this radio enough to where I'm considering giving it another shot. I remember the only issue it had was low volume, considering a couple of it's tubes ended up in my bad tube pile I imagine theissue is gonna have something to do with that. I can overlook some things like no back cover and the dented IF can, but others not so much.

What do you guys think?

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 Post subject: Re: Philco 46-200 Restore Or Scrap out?
PostPosted: Jun Sun 09, 2019 5:30 pm 
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Location: Near Brandon, Iowa
Given enough time, all historical techno-artifacts appreciate in cash value, usually a bit above the normal inflation rate. But the immediate-postwar Philco products will take A LOT of time passing to be worth anything among the collecting cognoscenti. And to insult to injury, "Transitone" was
Philco's "el crapo" bargain-basement line.


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 Post subject: Re: Philco 46-200 Restore Or Scrap out?
PostPosted: Jun Sun 09, 2019 6:03 pm 
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Location: Chicago IL
I honestly rarely look at the monetary value of a radio to determine whether it's a keeper or not. In fact I kinda have a thing for the cheapies. Some of my favorite radios are the ones from the 60s with couplets and hardly any components on their ciircuit board.

I guess what I'm more concerned about is if it would take an illogical amount of money to fix this radio up. How much would it cost to get that stuff?

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 Post subject: Re: Philco 46-200 Restore Or Scrap out?
PostPosted: Jun Sun 09, 2019 6:08 pm 
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Joined: Jan Mon 16, 2012 4:15 pm
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Location: Near Brandon, Iowa
Most radio restoration is a money-losing proposition. If you like it, restore it and resale potential be damned. It's just that simple.


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 Post subject: Re: Philco 46-200 Restore Or Scrap out?
PostPosted: Jun Sun 09, 2019 6:11 pm 
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You'll need a parts set, or a seller that's already parted one out to get most of the model specific things like the dial scale, pointer, and loop antenna. Depends on how much you want to spend to get those items. 4" speakers are fairly generic, so you could substitute one from another radio and it would work fine even if it doesn't look exactly like the original. Mounting the replacement is the main issue since the original was mounted off the magnet housing.

Maybe you could do it all for $20-$25 but maybe not.

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 Post subject: Re: Philco 46-200 Restore Or Scrap out?
PostPosted: Jun Sun 09, 2019 6:30 pm 
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Ehhh alright I'll fix it up. I do like it.

Can anyone remind me of the tube locations for this thing or a source for the schematic? I have the two tubes missing and I found them but don't remember which goes where.

EDIT: Found the riders at nostalgia air.

Unfortunately I was wrong about the tubes, i did not find them. What I thought was the tubes are actually a couple of 7 volt filament ones. Actually I think I may be able to power it on with those. Im almost convinced these are the tubes that were in it originally, I don't have any other loctals.

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 Post subject: Re: Philco 46-200 Restore Or Scrap out?
PostPosted: Jun Sun 09, 2019 6:44 pm 
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14A7 next to dented IF can. 14B6 on the corner.


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 Post subject: Re: Philco 46-200 Restore Or Scrap out?
PostPosted: Jun Sun 09, 2019 6:58 pm 
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Thank you, tubes are my first issue I have to deal with now.

So as i said I had the set working but now it's missing two tubes for some reason. I only have 3 loctal tubes in my whole stash. One 7B7 another 7A8 and a 7Y4 double diode. The riders calls for 14V filaments but at 106 total filament voltage I'm assuming it could be run in a place with 110V-115V line voltage with a total of 106V filament voltage drop. I'm convinced at least one of these tubes is what was in the radio before. One of the needed tubes is a 14B6 and all I have is a 7Y4 dual diode, the 14B6 is a dual triode. Before I go and buy the two missing tubes, does anyone know if these radios ever used the dual diode for a detector rather than the 14B6 dual triode?

EDIT: Scrap that. I found a 7C6 which is the tube that must have been originally in place of the 14B6. These substitutions im guessing where either original or made somewhere along the life of the radio.

Whole tube line up in my radio would be then

35Z5
50L6
7A8
7B7
7C6

Will upgrade the 7 volt tubes at the end with 14 volt ones as I do live in a place with 120V line voltage. For now I'll try and power it on like that for testing purposes and hopefully nothing fries. The last two tubes are weak anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Philco 46-200 Restore Or Scrap out?
PostPosted: Jun Sun 09, 2019 10:27 pm 
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I've restored radios with little market value simply because I've liked them, so glad to see you're fixing it up. What exactly is wrong with the dial scale? And the pointer of course could be replaced, but looks OK for the time being.

Here's a scan of mine, with a BC made of Masonite, and another with information on the antenna;


Attachments:
Philco antenna.jpg
Philco antenna.jpg [ 139.41 KiB | Viewed 590 times ]
Philco back.JPG
Philco back.JPG [ 196.87 KiB | Viewed 590 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Philco 46-200 Restore Or Scrap out?
PostPosted: Jun Sun 09, 2019 10:55 pm 
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Thanks for the information. The one about the antenna is especially helpful. The dial is scratched up a little. Not too bad.

I tested it and put the tubes in. Local oscillator seems to be working but nothing else. Audio amp is also there. Must the loop antenna be present? Disconnected the ground lug at the back of the radio and hooked up an alligator clip to one end of the loop antenna connections. I'd still expect to hear some noise but have almost nothing except a really faint hum.

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 Post subject: Re: Philco 46-200 Restore Or Scrap out?
PostPosted: Jun Sun 09, 2019 11:05 pm 
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I presume you did the second radio test to verify that the osc is working? Given your location, you absolutely should have picked up at least one of the 50 KW blowtorches. Try connecting the set to any other air loop, even one that's in another radio, and post the result.


Attachments:
Second Radio Test.Jpeg
Second Radio Test.Jpeg [ 110.74 KiB | Viewed 584 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: Philco 46-200 Restore Or Scrap out?
PostPosted: Jun Mon 10, 2019 2:46 am 
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Yes I did that sweep test. I do have another loop. I'll hook it up and report. 7A8, 7B7, and 7C6 are all weak tubes but again I figure they should pick SOMETHING up. I assume the reason all these tubes are on the way out is due to the low filament voltage running on 120V AC when the radio seems to have been set up for 110VAC operation.

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 Post subject: Re: Philco 46-200 Restore Or Scrap out?
PostPosted: Jun Mon 10, 2019 3:32 am 
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Well remember that consumer electronics has always had a +/- tolerance of 15%, so running 120 VAC is well within that parameter. The set should function with any air loop if everything else is up to snuff.

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 Post subject: Re: Philco 46-200 Restore Or Scrap out?
PostPosted: Jun Tue 11, 2019 5:33 am 
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I'm convinced the issue is probably the detector tube.

I tried adding the loop with no results. I tried blasting it with my signal generator (it's a pretty strong one) and most of the peep i got from it is if i touch the audio amp connections. I then continued poking some more at the IF tubes and managed to get something there. I got to inject a signal at the converter tube plate, from there I peaked the IF cans and both cans peaked which to me means these circuits are working. Other reason I think it's the detector is that even when I touch a probe or something to the audio output tube I get a very low signal, I would imagine i get something louder out of it. I think somehow the detector tube might be muting the incoming RF and the outgoing audio. I want to get those tubes just to be sure. Should I upgrade to 14 volt filaments or stick with 7? Or maybe do one 7 and one 14 volt so i get a mid point that is capable of being used most comfortably in either 110 and 120 line grids?

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 Post subject: Re: Philco 46-200 Restore Or Scrap out?
PostPosted: Jun Tue 11, 2019 6:50 am 
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The stock tube compliment is 7A8, 14A7, 14B6, 50L6, & 35Y4. I would stick to that lineup. Mine works just fine on 121 VAC.

The 7A8 should read -12 volts (minus twelve volts) on pin 4. If it doesn't, the osc won't work.

http://www.nostalgiaair.org/pagesbymode ... 013591.pdf

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 Post subject: Re: Philco 46-200 Restore Or Scrap out?
PostPosted: Jun Tue 11, 2019 1:39 pm 
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The Philco Service bulletin for Code 121 and 122 calls for 7B7 and 7C6 with 80 Ohms in the filament string. I'd use 14A7 and 14B myself...

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 Post subject: Re: Philco 46-200 Restore Or Scrap out?
PostPosted: Jun Tue 11, 2019 11:41 pm 
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I think the tube layout may be due to a factory modification. See this thread here:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=360328

The OP mentions his set having 7-volt tubes with a dropping resistor in series with the filament line, as per the 1947 Beitman's schematic for it.

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 Post subject: Re: Philco 46-200 Restore Or Scrap out?
PostPosted: Jun Wed 12, 2019 12:21 am 
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OK, I just opened mine up to check the tube compliment, and it's exactly as I had posted above;
7A8, 14A7, 14B6, 50L6, & 35Y4. No speculation, "just the facts, ma'am".

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 Post subject: Re: Philco 46-200 Restore Or Scrap out?
PostPosted: Jun Mon 17, 2019 3:04 am 
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Alright I got it working.

The problem was a missing R6 470K to the plate of the detector. I must have borrowed it a while back then forgot about it. Sometimes i'm short on parts..... :lol:

It actually sounds louder now (albeit with a completely jacked up speaker) than it ever did before. During my testing i tweaked the IF cans so maybe the extra loudness came from this. When I used to use it and it was complete the quietness is the main problem with this radio that I never bothered to take care of.

So now I need to find a speaker for it. You guys think I'll be successful in finding it? Won't bother getting it new tubes unless I can find that.

Oh and by the way, this DOES need 7 volt tubes. It has an 80 ohm resistor in series with the filaments. I also just realized i need to stop calling them that as the 7 is just a number and filaments are actually 6.3. Got used to all the tube numbers that start with filament voltage.

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 Post subject: Re: Philco 46-200 Restore Or Scrap out?
PostPosted: Jun Mon 17, 2019 5:19 am 
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You can use any PM speaker that'll fit. Try several if you have them, and select the best sounding one, if there's a difference.

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