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 Post subject: Restoring an Eico 470 Oscilloscope
PostPosted: Jul Wed 24, 2019 12:15 am 
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Location: St. Louis, MO
To be honest, this started as me attempting to restore a Motorola B12WA. During alignment, I noticed that the radio was picking up the signal from my signal generator (B&K E-200D) quite some distance off what the signal generator's dial was set at, so now I need to align my signal generator. To do that, I need an oscilloscope, so I got an Eico 470. I've never used an oscilloscope before, but from watching a couple videos on Youtube, I picked up the basics... I think.

I bought the manual for it online, only to find out that it's the construction manual. The Eico 470 was also available as a kit back in the day. Still, with part specs, I was able to recap the whole thing as well as replace all the resistors that were out of spec. I think there's maybe 4 resistors that were still in spec? Now there were 5 resistors inside that were different values from the schematic, which I documented, along with one ground wire for the vertical gain that went to a different ground lug on the metal chassis. According to their part number indexes, 2 resistors went to the CRT circuit, 1 went to the vertical amplifier and 2 went to the sweep circuit. I also put BNCs on it to make it easier to use with modern equipment.

So I turn it on and get an oval? I'd post a picture, but apparently can't since I'm too new.

The intensity, focus, L-R and U-D position knobs all work right... after I spun the CRT right side up. Yes, I've double checked attachment points. Vertical Gain and Horizontal Gain appear to work right, I can move the ovals in those directions. Vertical Attenuator appears to work, I can make shorter ovals, but the Cal setting makes a vertical line. Sweep Frequency or its Vernier appear to do nothing. I don't really know what the Sync Selector, its Amplitude or Phasing do, so I don't know how to test them. If I plug my signal generator into the V input and have the horizontal selector on 60~, I can get a horizontal output that somewhat looks like what an O scope is supposed to display, but once I switch it to Sweep, I get a vertical line at the same amplitude.

I don't really know how to proceed from here. Vacuum tube O scope restoration videos that I've found online all apparently end up with working scopes when they turn them on. I could really use the instruction manual for it. I've searched high and low for that one but can't find it anywhere online. That means I don't know how to do the final adjustments for it.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!


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 Post subject: Re: Restoring an Eico 470 Oscilloscope
PostPosted: Jul Wed 24, 2019 1:55 am 
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Location: Austin, Texas
I don't know why you would need an oscilloscope to calibrate a signal generator. If you did use an oscilloscope, you would need one with a calibrated sweep and the Eico 470 doesn't have that.

If you want to calibrate your signal generator, get a frequency counter. There are a lot of them on Ebay starting in the $20 range.

Jay


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 Post subject: Re: Restoring an Eico 470 Oscilloscope
PostPosted: Jul Wed 24, 2019 2:46 am 
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Location: St. Louis, MO
The service manual for the B&K E-200D specifies an oscilloscope for the Modulation Adjustment section, more specifically, their model 1450. This page here says to use an oscilloscope for aligning the B&K E-200D as well. Both versions also mention frequency counters. Guess I need to go shopping again...

Still, I'd like to repair this o scope anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Restoring an Eico 470 Oscilloscope
PostPosted: Jul Wed 24, 2019 8:54 am 
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Greetings to ZombieElvis and the Forum:

I may not have understood your post correctly, but there seems to be some confusion over what the controls do. I am not able to find much information on that scope on line, but I'm guessing that you have four basic controls that affect the display directly. These four are two vertical controls (position and gain) and two horizontal controls (position and gain).

The position controls are used to position the display on the face of the tube. Whatever display you have, you should be able to move it up and down (vertically) with the vertical position control. Likewise, whatever display you have, you should be able to move it from side to side (horizontally) with the horizontal position control. If you cannot make these adjustments, that is the first thing to trouble-shoot.

The second set of controls are used to control the size of the display. The vertical gain control (together with the vertical attenuator switch if so equipped) should allow you to control the vertical size of the display. The horizontal gain should allow you to control the width of the display.

I would begin with the vertical gain set to minimum and the attenuator switch (if so equipped) set to the maximum attenuation possible. You might also short the scope's vertical input terminals (I am assuming binding posts here) together. This should give you a single horizontal line on the scope tube. If you have only a spot of light, the horizontal sweep circuit is not running. Be careful to keep the intensity control to a minimum or you will burn the phosphor of the CRT if there is no sweep.

Try setting the sweep switch to various positions to see if you get sweep (a single horizontal line) in all cases (except external input). If the line is not horizontal, you do not have the tube oriented correctly.

If you cannot get a single horizontal line, then the horizontal sweep circuits will need to be looked into.

Trouble-shooting a scope (even a simple one) is a complex process that is best broken down into simple steps. You should be able to post photos here after a couple of days. These will help us very much in trying to guide you to the cause of your troubles. One other thing you should be aware of... there is an old adage: To fix a scope requires a scope. In some cases, only a properly functioning oscilloscope can correctly diagnose some problems, particularly in the vertical amplifier and horizontal sweep circuits.

If your problems turn out to be complex in nature, you will have to try to borrow a scope from someone near you, or take your scope to a friend who is familiar with scopes to help you look into the problem.

Good Luck,

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 Post subject: Re: Restoring an Eico 470 Oscilloscope
PostPosted: Jul Wed 24, 2019 9:28 pm 
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Location: Dallas, TX
I think a lack of the manual in this case is the root of the problem. I think it may be operator error as much as anything.
If I understand correctly you are seeing an oval trace, the line making this trace can be adjusted for focus and brightness, and you can move it up and down and left and right.
To get an oval trace both the vertical and the horizontal must be displaying nearly identical signals similar to a sinewave.
Older oscilloscopes had features that modern ones no longer needed or were included because of testing methods that are seldom used now. Modern scope how-to's would not cover these. One such feature is to use a 60 Hz signal from the power line to sweep in the horizontal direction. I found a schematic in another thread for this scope and it looks like it has this feature, a "Phase" control is involved in sweeping this way. This being the case it also would seem that a similar 60Hz signal is on the vertical channel, this could be a circuit fault, (i.e. hum ). Unfortunately the schematic has no labels for the controls or the panel connections so figuring out what some of those are for would be difficult.
If you could post some (readable) pictures of the controls maybe things can be figured out.
It is you misfortune to have picked an obscure scope without much documentation available. It might of been better to have obtained the info before going very far with restoration. Do you know the scopes bandwidth? Many scopes of that vintage have a limited ability to display signals very far into the RF range. It might not be very useful to show the modulated RF signal of that B&K generator.

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Tim
It's not the Destination, It's the Journey.


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 Post subject: Re: Restoring an Eico 470 Oscilloscope
PostPosted: Jul Thu 25, 2019 12:40 am 
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Joined: Jul Mon 01, 2019 4:42 pm
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Location: St. Louis, MO
That you both for your help!

Yeah, I saw that schematic in another thread here too... It forced me to buy the book, which apparently that schematic comes from. I can tell you what which parts all of the index numbers go to. I might even drag out my scanner and put the whole book online. Still, it only has assembly instructions.

Hey, I can post pictures now! Oops, it posted at full size... OK, here's just a link of the controls: https://i.imgur.com/QWDNETC.jpg It does indeed have that 60 Hz feature. In fact, I can get a horizontal line. Here's Vertical Attenuation at 100, Vertical Gain at 0, Phasing and Horizontal Gain at about half, Horizontal Selector at 60~: https://i.imgur.com/sETkR94.jpg But when I switch to Sweep on the Horizontal Selector, no matter the Sweep Frequency, I get this: https://i.imgur.com/fUOSuAy.jpg

The plot thickens. When I plug my signal generator into V Input on the 60~ setting, I get this: https://i.imgur.com/raXUk9H.jpg

Here's the specs I've been able to find:
Image

It looks to me like I'm just supposed to make sure that the modulation of the E-200D looks sinusoidal.


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 Post subject: Re: Restoring an Eico 470 Oscilloscope
PostPosted: Jul Thu 25, 2019 5:28 am 
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Greetings to ZombieElvis and the Forum:

I finally found the schematic also. However, without component values or voltages, there is a lot of guess work to be done.

The switch in the upper left corner appears to be the vertical attenuator switch. The first position appears to be the "calibrate" position with contacts labeled "A" and "B". If the diagram follows the photo of the front panel, then the next position is times 100 (using C102), the times 10 position is next (using C103) and the last position (direct connection) is times 1.

The next switch down from that on the left edge of the schematic appears to be the "Sync Selector" switch. Position 1 is line sync (derived from the power transformer filament winding point "W"), position 2 appears to be "+ Internal" derived from point "X" in the vertical amplifier output, position 3 appears to be "-Internal" derived from the X' point in the vertical amplifier output and position 4 appears to be "External" sync.

Switch 302A and 302B comprise the "Hor Selector" switch. Switch 302A removes B+ from the sweep oscillator when the scope is set to 60 Hz or external sweep. Switch 302B selects a 60 Hz input to the horizontal sweep amplifier from point "Y" off the filament string when 60 Hz sweep is desired (position 3), it selects the sweep oscillator output when the variable frequency sweep is desired (position 2) and selects an external input when in position 1.

V301 appears to be a 6SN7 which comprises the horizontal sweep oscillator. V201 also appears to be a 6SN7. V201B appears to be involved with re-trace blanking and V201A is the input stage to the horizontal amplifier.

Since you seem to have a sweep when in 60 Hz mode, we will assume the horizontal amplifier is working for now, at least well enough to ignore it for the time being. This means that you need to concentrate on V301 and its associated circuitry. Be sure that there is plate voltage present on the plates of V301 (pins 2 and 5). This will only be present when the "Hor Selector" switch is in the "Sweep" position which is where we want it for these tests. Be sure to keep the intensity low so that the dot does not burn the screen.

If there is no B+ on the plates of V301, examine the wiring around switch 302A. Be sure the switch is clean, functioning and wired correctly. If there is B+, then carefully examine the wiring around V301 for incorrect components or miswires. Be sure that S303 is clean and functioning correctly. Be sure that R307 ("Sweep Vern" or sweep vernier, i.e. fine frequency control) is clean and making proper contact throughout its rotation in both sections. Of course, last but not least, verify that V301 is a good tube.

Let us know what you find.

Good Luck,

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Jim T.
KB6GM


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 Post subject: Re: Restoring an Eico 470 Oscilloscope
PostPosted: Jul Thu 25, 2019 5:22 pm 
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Jim seems to have covered things pretty well.
To summarize what the controls should be set to while you get things to work:
SYNC SEL > INT+
SYNC AMPL > as needed
SWEEP FREQ > as needed
SWEEP VERN > as needed
VERT GAIN > as needed
PHASING > doesn't matter
HOR GAIN > as needed
VERT ATTN > NOT CAL, as needed
HOR SELECTION > SWEEP
V. INPUT > signal generator

In the last photo you posted what you are seeing is the vertical being swept by the higher frequency sig gen output while the horizontal is swept with a 60 Hz sinewave from the power line signal. The two frequencies are not related by a small number and are not synchronized to each other.
You may have a problem with sufficient amplitude in one or both directions but that can wait until you get the sweep to work.

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 Post subject: Re: Restoring an Eico 470 Oscilloscope
PostPosted: Jul Thu 25, 2019 7:38 pm 
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This is just a document dump, I haven't done any tests yet. Here's a MUCH better schematic: https://imgur.com/p0IwJ7a I tried resizing it to attach here, but the numbers on the left lost all detail. You got component values now.

As for the knobs on the front:
R501 is Intensity
R503 is Focus
R512 is Vertical Position
R513 is Horizontal Position
S301 is Sync. Sel.
R304 is Sync. Ampl.
S303 is Sweep Freq.
R307 is Sweep Vern
R111 is Vert. Gain
R313 is Phasing
R203 is Hor. Gain
S101 is Vert. Atten.
S401 is Power
S302 is Hor. Selector

I suppose I should mention the 5 resistors that I found inside that were different from what the schematic said.
R506 and R507 are supposed to be 470kohm, but were 47kohm
R114 is supposed to be 470 ohm, but was 47kohm
R309 and R312 are supposed to be 47kohm, but were 470kohm

There was one cap on the attenuator circuit too. C105 is supposed to be 100 pf, but was 1000 pf. They used the same value cap in parallel with both trimmer caps for the vertical attenuator adjustments for some reason. Oh, and I have no idea what the R108 pot does. I assume it's for calibration since it's mounted near the attenuator adjustments.

I'm impressed that you could guess the correct tubes, Jim. Only one was wrong. Onto the tests!


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 Post subject: Re: Restoring an Eico 470 Oscilloscope
PostPosted: Jul Thu 25, 2019 8:31 pm 
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Tests complete. On V301, there's 324.4 VDC on pin 2 and 236.9 VDC on pin 5. It appears that both plates are being fed.

Both pots of R307 appear to test fine. I'm going to go out and buy some spare tubes...


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 Post subject: Re: Restoring an Eico 470 Oscilloscope
PostPosted: Jul Thu 25, 2019 8:42 pm 
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Greetings to ZombieElvis and the Forum:

The values of the resistors that you found to be incorrect most likely are. The values from the parts list would seem to me to be more reasonable; I assume you have installed the correct values.

R108 sets the level of the vertical calibration signal. Presumably, one would feed the scope a known accurate waveform with a peak-to-peak amplitude the same as the calibrator is supposed to produce and then set R108 so as to produce the same amplitude when in the calibrate mode.

Good luck chasing the problem in the oscillator circuit.

Regards,

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Jim T.
KB6GM


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 Post subject: Re: Restoring an Eico 470 Oscilloscope
PostPosted: Jul Fri 26, 2019 12:35 am 
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Location: Powell River BC Canada
Take extreme care with R506, R507, C501, C307.

R506 may have been changed because C501 leaked . C501, C 307 need to be
voltage rated carefully.


R508 ,R509 may be jumpered out.

The scope is rare because of the 7 inch CRT. Eico may have had trouble
getting the tubes, and various makes may have had different vertical
sensitivity.

If the scope was used in a shop for aligning TV sets, it could be put on
a high shelf behind the bench, that the TV set was laid on. So as the
coils were turned, the tech could look up and see the trace move. There might
have been a transparency with the correct shape laid in the bezel.

The sweep multi vibrator is easy. Only 4 wires go to S503.
Plate pins 2 and 5, Cathode 3, and ground. Sawtooth comes off pin5.

B + via R315 and C202 B need to be good, or sweep wont work.

It is a great scope. There was one in a TV shop I worked at once.
But thats all I remember about that place.

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de
VE7ASO VE7ZSO
Amateur Radio Literacy Club. May we help you read better.
Steve Dow
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 Post subject: Re: Restoring an Eico 470 Oscilloscope
PostPosted: Jul Fri 26, 2019 1:49 am 
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I figured out the sweep! R305 was supposed to be 470 ohm, but I had in a 470 kohm... So I swapped that out for the correct value, plugged in my signal generator and now I get this: https://imgur.com/mFwDUta A WAVE!!!

I matched the specs for C501 and C307. Do I need to step them up?

Yes, R508 and R509 are jumpered. There's even a removable panel on the back to access their jumpers.

The plastic insert for the screen is long gone. There's one in the picture of my manual cover. It shows the cover more decorated too. The manual is only in black and white, but it looks like the first models came in Eico blue on the front with squares around the knobs, not the all silver one that I got.

So how do I do the final adjustments on this thing without the instruction manual? Or am I not quite ready for that yet?


Last edited by ZombieElvis on Jul Fri 26, 2019 2:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Restoring an Eico 470 Oscilloscope
PostPosted: Jul Fri 26, 2019 2:17 am 
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Location: Dallas, TX
Good news!
I think you can stick with the spec voltage ratings. I would change out the resistors and cap that do not match the parts list spec. Whoever built this made some mistakes most likely.
You signal generator may put out a unsymmetrical waveform (not uncommon with vintage equipment)
or the scope could be at fault (likely because some of the components are wrong). If you switch the VERT ATTN to CAL you might see a 60 Hz sine wave, that would help exclude a sig gen signal not being a nice sinewave.

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Tim
It's not the Destination, It's the Journey.


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 Post subject: Re: Restoring an Eico 470 Oscilloscope
PostPosted: Jul Fri 26, 2019 2:36 am 
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Greetings to ZombieElvis and the Forum:

I would remind you that this is a family friendly site. Please do not take the Lord's name in vain.

Glad you got it working. You can probably skip final adjustments for now.... the scope will present a waveform and that's probably all you need. To properly calibrate it to the best of its ability would require a leveled output signal generator and a frequency counter.

Steve: Please take care with your component designators.... you will confuse the poor fellow. When you referred to SW 503, as near as I can tell, you were referring to SW 302... there is no SW 503.

I can't find an R315; R314 is the dropping resistor feeding the oscillator via SW 302.

Lastly, I don't see any need to have any special voltage rating on C307. It needs only to withstand the B+ on V201B. The other end goes to a front panel connector for external blanking and I doubt that Eico would allow high voltage on the front panel. C501, on the other hand, does need to be a high voltage rated component... preferably with zero leakage.

Regards,

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Jim T.
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 Post subject: Re: Restoring an Eico 470 Oscilloscope
PostPosted: Jul Fri 26, 2019 4:57 am 
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Joined: Sep Thu 23, 2010 6:37 am
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Location: Powell River BC Canada
The jumpered resisters behind the plate are so the vertical plates of the tube can
be accessed directly. Ham radio operators can connect the transmitter RF to the plates,
in a connection that allows modulation, and in particular, overmodulation
to be seen on the screen. Google will lead to this.

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de
VE7ASO VE7ZSO
Amateur Radio Literacy Club. May we help you read better.
Steve Dow
ve7aso@rac.ca


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 Post subject: Re: Restoring an Eico 470 Oscilloscope
PostPosted: Jul Fri 26, 2019 5:06 am 
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Joined: Sep Thu 23, 2010 6:37 am
Posts: 12437
Location: Powell River BC Canada
The front panel terminal to the CRT grid is for Z axis modulation.
In days past, a TV chassis was taken to shop, leaving the CRT in
the cabinet, in the home.

( I shudder remembering the 30 inch sets :shock: )

In the shop, after all was ready, the raster could be seen on a CRT,
when video went to the Z axis, and sweeps to V and H terminals.

The high voltage consideration on the two caps is if both fail, the CRT
can be destroyed if the bias is lost.
Attachment:
Eico 470  Sorry I got the Sweep frequency switch number backwards.jpg
Eico 470 Sorry I got the Sweep frequency switch number backwards.jpg [ 319.83 KiB | Viewed 1504 times ]

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de
VE7ASO VE7ZSO
Amateur Radio Literacy Club. May we help you read better.
Steve Dow
ve7aso@rac.ca


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 Post subject: Re: Restoring an Eico 470 Oscilloscope
PostPosted: Jul Sat 27, 2019 8:01 pm 
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Location: St. Louis, MO
There's at least something on the internet about this scope now. I scanned my construction manual and emailed it to BAMA. Ed already posted it too.

According to tracking, my frequency counter should arrive today.

Should I worry about replacing the graticule? Where could I even find a 7" one?

One more question. What should I use for probes for this thing? All I got right now is BNC to alligator clips. The thing originally used just plain old twisted pair.


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 Post subject: Re: Restoring an Eico 470 Oscilloscope
PostPosted: Jul Sat 27, 2019 8:59 pm 
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Joined: Sep Thu 23, 2010 6:37 am
Posts: 12437
Location: Powell River BC Canada
Any X1-X10 probe will do. If you are using it on X1, C102 and C103
could be adjusted for best square wave with about one tenth the
frequency response quoted for the scope.

Otherwise the X10 position might be tweaked with the probe's trimmer
similarly for the first position of the vertical attenuator.

Then the scope will not capacitively load the circuit under test.

Graticule allows measurement factor of volts peak to peak,
volts/inch, and (time unit). per horizontal division.

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de
VE7ASO VE7ZSO
Amateur Radio Literacy Club. May we help you read better.
Steve Dow
ve7aso@rac.ca


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 Post subject: Re: Restoring an Eico 470 Oscilloscope
PostPosted: Jul Sun 28, 2019 1:33 am 
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Greetings to ZombieElvis and the Forum:

You can make a graticule fairly easily. The originals were just printed on thin sheet plastic and tucked into the protruding ring on the front panel. Most of them developed wrinkles and sags after awhile and wouldn't even stay in place. That's probably why yours is missing.

You can make up a simple cm square grid of the correct size and copy it onto a transparent sheet in a copier. This would produce a graticule quite close to the original. If you want something more resistant to the sag / wrinkle problem, you could try gluing your thin sheet graticule to something thicker (sheet of Lucite or Lexan?) and then trimming that to fit into the ring.

Since you now have a cm grid in place, you can feed the scope a signal of known amplitude within its rated bandwidth and note the number of cm deflection. You can then adjust R108 for the same number of squares deflection in "Calibrate" mode and you will then have a voltage reference to make measurements with.

I ran a quick simulation of the calibration circuit with LT spice and came up with the maximum and minimum voltages that you can expect to see at the point where the cal signal is taken off to the vertical amplifier. The maximum you should be able to see there (cal pot set to 1 ohm resistance) is 600 mV. The minimum you should see there (cal pot set to maximum = 5K) is 250 mV. Note: These voltages are peak-to-peak voltages.

Therefore, I would find an external source of 60 Hz AC that you can accurately set the voltage on. Set it to 500 MV peak-to-peak and apply it to the scope vertical input. Set the scope gain controls to present a display of 10 vertical divisions on your graticule. This means that the scope is now set to a sensitivity of 50 mV per division. Now, without changing the scope gain controls in any way, switch to calibrate mode. Adjust R108 for a display of 10 vertical divisions in amplitude. Go back to the initial mode and verify that the external calibrated AC source is still 10 vertical divisions. If both displays remain the same, the scope is calibrated... at least for 60 Hz. To see if the calibration holds over the frequency range of the scope requires a leveled output signal generator, or another accurate wide band scope.

Good Luck,

_________________
Jim T.
KB6GM


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