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 Post subject: Best lubrication for annular platter thrust bearings?
PostPosted: Mar Thu 14, 2019 6:37 pm 
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Annular platter thrust bearings (multiple ball bearings in a race sandwiched between two washers) are ubiquitous with stacker / changers due to the center stacking spindle architecture.

Some of the better performing higher end changers from Elac, Dual, Garrard, VOM (and others) are worthy of restoration.

But with their multiple ball bearings spinning in a metal sandwich, annular bearing stackers can be much more challenging to tame thrust-bearing-induced rumble and whine vs. transcription idlers with only a single ball bearing.

Has anyone experimented and determined what lubrications work best with annular platter bearings from a standpoint of a.) minimizing audible platter bearing noise / rumble and b.) longevity of the lubricant/s?

High pressure grease? Mix with oil? Synthetics? I would love to hear what specific products and lubrication viscosities / properties you guys are utilizing and what kind of results you are getting with respect to minimizing thrust bearing noise. (Yes, I know there are other items to address in changers, including refreshed idler wheels and motor mounts etc, but I just want to focus on platter bearing lubrication in this thread.)

Also, I assume that only the sides of the two washers that face/sandwich the balls/race should have lubrication and that the opposite sides of each washer that face away from the race should remain dry. Is that a correct assumption?

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 Post subject: Re: Best lubrication for annular platter thrust bearings?
PostPosted: Mar Thu 14, 2019 9:19 pm 
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Location: S. Dartmouth MA 02748-1225 USA
I use office equipment lube... It is a light amber colored grease available from Nye Oil I also use it on my Teletype machines too...

BTW the washers are hardened, also, part of the bearing.

Chas

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 Post subject: Re: Best lubrication for annular platter thrust bearings?
PostPosted: Mar Thu 14, 2019 9:42 pm 
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I use Dow-Corning 44 synthetic grease, after a thorough cleaning. DC44 does not harden with age.

-David


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 Post subject: Re: Best lubrication for annular platter thrust bearings?
PostPosted: Mar Thu 14, 2019 11:53 pm 
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I think higher rumble is just a trade-off of a changer.

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It's not the Destination, It's the Journey.


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 Post subject: Re: Best lubrication for annular platter thrust bearings?
PostPosted: Mar Fri 15, 2019 6:48 pm 
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Location: Northeast Florida
"Annual platter thrusts bearings"? I just call them platter bearings :?

I use Phonolube, which as I understand has been discontinued. I'm sure there are other products that are similar.

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 Post subject: Re: Best lubrication for annular platter thrust bearings?
PostPosted: Mar Sat 16, 2019 2:21 am 
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Phonolube hardens after a few years. Vile stuff.....

-David


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 Post subject: Re: Best lubrication for annular platter thrust bearings?
PostPosted: Mar Sat 16, 2019 2:34 am 
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Yeppers, Walsco Phono-Lube, a lithium soap grease with a clay filler. oil falls of of suspension and runs away leaving the soap and clay to hardened. Does take a few years...

An extreme pressure grease should be available from an national distributor of auto supplies.. The few balls in the thrust bearing are taking the weight of the entire platter, accumulated records and the ounces of the tone arm. If the grease sheers, the balls drag rather than roll... Another source is a machinists supply, center lube is extreme pressure.

As far as rumble, hardened motor suspension grommets, hardened idler as well as worn bushings in the motor, all, will contribute to platter rumble as well as a poor or no rumble filter in the input circuit.

YMMV

Chas

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 Post subject: Re: Best lubrication for annular platter thrust bearings?
PostPosted: Mar Sat 16, 2019 6:31 am 
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I've never come across a lubricant yet that didn't dry out over time--none of it lasts forever

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 Post subject: Re: Best lubrication for annular platter thrust bearings?
PostPosted: Mar Sat 16, 2019 7:58 am 
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Location: Houston, TX
A good synthetic like Super Lube shouldn't dry out.
Neither should silicone greases.

A really thick (high viscosity) lube like high-temp auto bearing grease might work, but keep in mind the thicker the grease, the more resistance to the drive components.

Then there's this: https://www.super-lube.com/silicone-lub ... colon-ptfe
Quote:
Super LubeĀ® Silicone Lubricating Brake Grease can also be used to dampen vibrations between disc brake pads and caliper pistons.

https://www.amazon.com/Super-Silicone-L ... 1-fkmrnull


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 Post subject: Re: Best lubrication for annular platter thrust bearings?
PostPosted: Mar Sat 16, 2019 9:13 am 
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Location: Northeast Florida
The operative word here is "should"---we don't know yet, only time will tell. Until we have a verdict, I will view all lubricants as temporary

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 Post subject: Re: Best lubrication for annular platter thrust bearings?
PostPosted: Mar Sat 16, 2019 4:21 pm 
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Location: Boston, MA USA
You may not be convinced but the rest of us have the benefit of over 60 years experience with synthetic lubricants. They don't harden. They just don't.

-David


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 Post subject: Re: Best lubrication for annular platter thrust bearings?
PostPosted: Mar Sat 16, 2019 6:24 pm 
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Joined: Apr Sun 16, 2017 7:57 pm
Posts: 91
Thanks! Great info so far. Keep the recommendations and perspectives coming!

I think back in the 1960s, the Duals originally spec'd out Alvania grease. Some people today are using Shell Gadus grease. Is that a synthetic or will it gum up?

And the Elac Miracord's originally spec'd "M55 = Millcot + 10% Molykote High Pressure Additive M 55"

What would be the equivalent of these greases today in a synthetic from both a viscosity and bearing load perspective?

Should platter bearing grease be mixed with oil or simply applied "as is?"


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 Post subject: Re: Best lubrication for annular platter thrust bearings?
PostPosted: Mar Sat 16, 2019 6:36 pm 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
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Location: Boston, MA USA
Whatever Dual prescribed, stay far away from it. Anyone who as restored a Dual turntable will confirm that the original lubricant had turned to glue.

I repeat my recommendation for DC44. Not cheap but you won't be sorry. Just use it straight, no oil. It's available from Grainger.

-David


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 Post subject: Re: Best lubrication for annular platter thrust bearings?
PostPosted: Mar Sat 16, 2019 7:33 pm 
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Joined: Apr Sun 16, 2017 7:57 pm
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dberman51 wrote:
Whatever Dual prescribed, stay far away from it. Anyone who as restored a Dual turntable will confirm that the original lubricant had turned to glue.

I repeat my recommendation for DC44. Not cheap but you won't be sorry. Just use it straight, no oil. It's available from Grainger.

-David


Hi David,

Thanks. Excellent observation.

Can you post the SKU or UPC number? Are you using the DC 44 "Light" or DC 44 "Medium?" I see DC is selling two different viscosities under the 44 banner.

The interesting thing is that the original Elac Miracord grease is much less susceptible to turning to glue than what Dual or BSR used. It's rare to find a completely frozen Elac (although Elac grease does need replacing and becomes tackier).

It turns out Elac was using Molykote 55, which I believe is in the same family of the DC44 (a Molykote) that you are recommending. This corroborates your findings.

I also found this selection chart for the entire modern Dow Corning Molykote family:

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 Post subject: Re: Best lubrication for annular platter thrust bearings?
PostPosted: Mar Sat 16, 2019 8:11 pm 
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Joined: Apr Sun 16, 2017 7:57 pm
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Also - what are thoughts on white lithium grease? Good or bad?


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 Post subject: Re: Best lubrication for annular platter thrust bearings?
PostPosted: Mar Sat 16, 2019 8:40 pm 
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Joined: Aug Tue 24, 2010 8:56 pm
Posts: 5562
Location: Northeast Florida
White lithium grease is one of the worst things you can use--it dries up in a matter of months, not years

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 Post subject: Re: Best lubrication for annular platter thrust bearings?
PostPosted: Mar Sat 16, 2019 8:57 pm 
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Joined: Apr Sun 16, 2017 7:57 pm
Posts: 91
Vin Tageman wrote:
A good synthetic like Super Lube shouldn't dry out.
Neither should silicone greases.

A really thick (high viscosity) lube like high-temp auto bearing grease might work, but keep in mind the thicker the grease, the more resistance to the drive components.

Then there's this: https://www.super-lube.com/silicone-lub ... colon-ptfe" -="window.open(this.href);return false;
Quote:
Super LubeĀ® Silicone Lubricating Brake Grease can also be used to dampen vibrations between disc brake pads and caliper pistons.

https://www.amazon.com/Super-Silicone-L ... 1-fkmrnull" -="window.open(this.href);return false;


Which Super Lube viscosity is better for platter bearings? "Standard Super Lube" or the "Brake Grease Super Lube?"


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 Post subject: Re: Best lubrication for annular platter thrust bearings?
PostPosted: Mar Sat 16, 2019 9:04 pm 
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Joined: Aug Fri 12, 2016 1:49 am
Posts: 710
Location: Houston, TX
tubes4life wrote:
White lithium grease is one of the worst things you can use--it dries up in a matter of months, not years


+1
Never use garden-variety lithium grease, especially deep in mechanisms (sliding parts, etc.) or you'll be tearing into them again for major cleanup and relube (with proper grease next time).


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 Post subject: Re: Best lubrication for annular platter thrust bearings?
PostPosted: Mar Sat 16, 2019 9:08 pm 
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Joined: Aug Fri 12, 2016 1:49 am
Posts: 710
Location: Houston, TX
zenithconsole wrote:
Which Super Lube viscosity is better for platter bearings? "Standard Super Lube" or the "Brake Grease Super Lube?"

I just checked both product pages and they're both NLGI Grade 2, which should mean they're about the same consistency.
The part in their description about vibration dampening just stuck out at me, since you were concerned about rumble.

You can compare specs for yourself. The tech data specs are available as well:
https://www.super-lube.com/multi-purpos ... colon-ptfe
https://www.super-lube.com/silicone-lub ... colon-ptfe


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