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 Post subject: BSR C109 issue: changer dropping two 45s at a time
PostPosted: Nov Tue 08, 2022 12:42 am 
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Joined: Jul Mon 23, 2012 1:10 am
Posts: 747
Location: N.Y., NY
Thought I had this solved but every time I think I do it seems to pop up again. Ultimately I'm trying to avoid disassembling any part of the changer mechanism as it looks a little bit dicey to deal with. Instead I went ahead and did some cleaning and re-lubing of several areas of the operating plate assembly and the cam gear assembly. I think it made an improvement but hasn't completely eradicated the issue. The trouble shooting guide in the service manual lists 'hole in record too large' as one of possible causes, but I don't know...the records I play are old but I'm not buying that the hole is so worn out in SO many records that it's creating this problem.

Any info appreciated! Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: BSR C109 issue: changer dropping two 45s at a time
PostPosted: Nov Tue 08, 2022 1:35 am 
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Joined: Jan Tue 31, 2012 12:55 am
Posts: 21776
Location: Bryansford Village. Ireland.
David wrote: Record drop is controlled by a...
viewtopic.php?p=1128826#p1128826

Greg.


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 Post subject: Re: BSR C109 issue: changer dropping two 45s at a time
PostPosted: Nov Tue 08, 2022 2:26 am 
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Joined: Jan Tue 15, 2013 11:04 pm
Posts: 2856
Location: 77001
And the BSR record spindle is removable, making
for easy cleaning.
I use 70% isopropyl alcohol for cleaning them.

You may also want to observe the cycle action
that engages the bottom of the record spindle,
pushing the spindle lever to drop records.

Hotwax


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 Post subject: Re: BSR C109 issue: changer dropping two 45s at a time
PostPosted: Nov Tue 08, 2022 5:26 am 
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Joined: Jul Mon 23, 2012 1:10 am
Posts: 747
Location: N.Y., NY
Thanks for the info so far.

Hotwax, yeah maybe I should try cleaning the spindle, it's been while since I last did it. And actually I did take a look at the mechanism in action earlier today and all seemed normal. My guess is that when the bottom of the spindle is pushed to release a record from the stack it's sitting there a tad too long. I was hoping the re-lubing I did would move that along but I'll try cleaning the spindle again and see if that helps. thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: BSR C109 issue: changer dropping two 45s at a time
PostPosted: Nov Tue 15, 2022 4:02 pm 
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Joined: Jul Mon 23, 2012 1:10 am
Posts: 747
Location: N.Y., NY
Well...Ive done some additional cleaning and re-lubing of the cam gear assembly and the operating plate assembly, the two things that as far as I can see determine the speed of the mechanism that engages the bottom of the record spindle, and I seem to be coming back to the same place: it seems like the problem is solved until it isn't and the changer drops two records instead of one at some random point. I could be wrong but I don't see a way to speed up the mechanism so the spindle returns to its original position quicker and the additional record doesn't drop. I've also tried several 45 spindle adapters and a different metal spindle. Same results. Does BSR make a cylindrical shaped 45 spindle adapter for this model? I've been looking around online and I don't see one that says it's designed specifically for the C109/110. The ones I've been using are the flat rectangular design which so far don't seem to be ideal. I'd like like to try out the round spindle to see if that would solve anything.


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 Post subject: Re: BSR C109 issue: changer dropping two 45s at a time
PostPosted: Nov Tue 15, 2022 5:35 pm 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 12:00 am
Posts: 5020
Location: Boston, MA
The flat 45 spindles are terribly unreliable. They can drop anywhere from zero to three records. The behavior you describe is typical.

-David


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 Post subject: Re: BSR C109 issue: changer dropping two 45s at a time
PostPosted: Nov Tue 15, 2022 6:35 pm 
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Joined: Jan Mon 04, 2010 1:52 am
Posts: 5859
Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan
I don't know about your BSR 45 RPM adapter, but with my V-M 45 RPM spindle adapters, I had to partially disassemble them, and then lubricate the moving parts with a liberal application of Singer sewing machine oil. Afterwards, those V-M 45 RPM adapters worked flawlessly.


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 Post subject: Re: BSR C109 issue: changer dropping two 45s at a time
PostPosted: Nov Tue 15, 2022 7:14 pm 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 12:00 am
Posts: 2834
Location: Carlstadt NJ USA
If a flat type adapter is dropping more than one record at a time, chances are that the balance arm is bent.

On the round type adapters, I don't believe in using oil. I make sure the parts are clean and dry, then apply a tiny bit of dry silicone lubricant. Oil will attract dirt, and will soil the record labels.


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 Post subject: Re: BSR C109 issue: changer dropping two 45s at a time
PostPosted: Nov Tue 15, 2022 8:01 pm 
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Joined: Jan Mon 04, 2010 1:52 am
Posts: 5859
Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan
Ken Doyle wrote:
If a flat type adapter is dropping more than one record at a time, chances are that the balance arm is bent.

On the round type adapters, I don't believe in using oil. I make sure the parts are clean and dry, then apply a tiny bit of dry silicone lubricant. Oil will attract dirt, and will soil the record labels.




The dry silicone lubricant may have been what Gary of V-M Enthusiasts had used too. Actually, I ended up taking those V-M 45 RPM adapters apart, and re-lubricating them. Unless one is drowning the adapters with oil, the record labels will be just fine.


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 Post subject: Re: BSR C109 issue: changer dropping two 45s at a time
PostPosted: Nov Tue 15, 2022 9:14 pm 
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Joined: Jul Mon 23, 2012 1:10 am
Posts: 747
Location: N.Y., NY
Ken Doyle wrote:
If a flat type adapter is dropping more than one record at a time, chances are that the balance arm is bent.


Hmmm, interesting...

Is there a good method of more closely determining if it is in fact bent (other than staring at it), and if it is what's the best way to fix it (without ruining it further)?


Last edited by nipperscousin on Nov Tue 15, 2022 10:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: BSR C109 issue: changer dropping two 45s at a time
PostPosted: Nov Tue 15, 2022 10:36 pm 
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Joined: Jan Tue 15, 2013 11:04 pm
Posts: 2856
Location: 77001
nipperscousin wrote:
Is there a good method of more closely determining if it is in fact bent, and if it is what's the best way to fix it (without ruining it further)?
Yes, very easy.

Over long use, record support arms are usually bent upwards
at the front end of the arm that sits on the records when records
are placed on the record spindle.

You can eyeball the support arm well by placing a
record on the spindle and placing the support arm
on the record as if to ready for play.
Viewed from the side, the record should sit
roughly parallel to the support arm.

If you need to bend the support arm, make SURE that you
support the rear of the support arm with one hand,
while GENTLY torquing/bending the front of support arm
downwards or upwards with other hand.

Don't make big bends, only small applications of pressure
at a time.
Then re-test. It may take 3-4 tweaks of the support arm.

Hotwax


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 Post subject: Re: BSR C109 issue: changer dropping two 45s at a time
PostPosted: Nov Tue 15, 2022 10:40 pm 
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Joined: Jul Mon 23, 2012 1:10 am
Posts: 747
Location: N.Y., NY
Hotwax wrote:
nipperscousin wrote:
Is there a good method of more closely determining if it is in fact bent, and if it is what's the best way to fix it (without ruining it further)?
Yes, very easy.

Over long use, record support arms are usually bent upwards
at the front end of the arm that sits on the records when records
are placed on the record spindle.

You can eyeball the support arm well by placing a
record on the spindle and placing the support arm
on the record as if to ready for play.
Viewed from the side, the record should sit
roughly parallel to the support arm.

If you need to bend the support arm, make SURE that you
support the rear of the support arm with one hand,
while GENTLY torquing/bending the front of support arm
downwards or upwards with other hand.

Don't make big bends, only small applications of pressure
at a time.
Then re-test. It may take 3-4 tweaks of the support arm.

Hotwax


Cool! I will definitely give that a try and see what happens.

Thanks to everybody for all of the information so far!


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 Post subject: Re: BSR C109 issue: changer dropping two 45s at a time
PostPosted: Nov Wed 16, 2022 3:14 am 
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Joined: Jul Mon 23, 2012 1:10 am
Posts: 747
Location: N.Y., NY
Ok...I gave it a few tries and around the fourth or fifth time without satisfactory results I was about to give up fearing I was going to do irreparable damage to this thing, but it looks like it may have actually done the trick. I played a few stacks of records and it seemed to hold up fine. No double-dropping! Thanks to Blustar and Hotwax for zeroing in on this! Mission accomplished...I hope!

This BSR deck that I've been talking about here is part of an AM/FM mini console that most likely dates from around 1969, manufactured by a company called APF which I could never find much information about online. I bought it a little over 10 years ago at a flea market for an absolute steal in amazing condition. When I bought it back then it came with three of the BSR flat 45 spindle adapters and an extra metal spindle which now leads me to believe that perhaps the previous/original owner also had an issue with the changer not dropping records properly and was trying different adapters to get it right. Whatever the case, it seems like the very slight bending of the control arm combined with one of the original 45 adapters that came with the player has fixed the issue.

Sidenote: the radio (which I recapped a year or two ago) in this console sounds pretty good on both bands. The changer however, could sound better, and I'm pretty sure over the last few years I replaced the stylus, but now I'm thinking the cartridge may have to be replaced. I know these things aren't built for audiophiles but it's not sounding all that great even for a low-end vintage piece of equipment. Probably worth discussing in another thread.

Thanks again!


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 Post subject: Re: BSR C109 issue: changer dropping two 45s at a time
PostPosted: Nov Thu 17, 2022 12:37 am 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 12:00 am
Posts: 2834
Location: Carlstadt NJ USA
Ken Doyle wrote:
If a flat type adapter is dropping more than one record at a time, chances are that the balance arm is bent.


nipperscousin wrote:
Thanks to Blustar and Hotwax for zeroing in on this! Mission accomplished...I hope!


Ahem.....


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 Post subject: Re: BSR C109 issue: changer dropping two 45s at a time
PostPosted: Nov Thu 17, 2022 3:38 pm 
Member

Joined: Jul Mon 23, 2012 1:10 am
Posts: 747
Location: N.Y., NY
Ken Doyle wrote:
Ken Doyle wrote:
If a flat type adapter is dropping more than one record at a time, chances are that the balance arm is bent.


nipperscousin wrote:
Thanks to Blustar and Hotwax for zeroing in on this! Mission accomplished...I hope!


Ahem.....


KEN, KEN!!! So sorry about that!

Let it be known that I'd like to thank to Ken Doyle for zeroing in on this. Thank you Ken for your help!!


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 Post subject: Re: BSR C109 issue: changer dropping two 45s at a time
PostPosted: Nov Thu 17, 2022 6:42 pm 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 12:00 am
Posts: 2834
Location: Carlstadt NJ USA
You're very welcome!


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 Post subject: Re: BSR C109 issue: changer dropping two 45s at a time
PostPosted: Nov Thu 24, 2022 10:54 am 
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Joined: Aug Mon 27, 2012 4:47 pm
Posts: 188
Location: Madrid, Spain / Wirral, England
Nice to see the problem is fixed. Just for reference, another reason why more than one disc may fall is if the platter has been seized up with hard grease, and someone tried to force it round, thus moving the shaft/bush out of true.This can usually be corrected by shifting it back with pliers and maybe applying some locking paint.


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