Forums :: Resources :: Features :: Photo Gallery :: Vintage Radio Shows :: Archives
Support This Site: Contributors :: Advertise


It is currently Jan Wed 22, 2020 12:05 pm


All times are UTC [ DST ]





Post New Topic Post Reply  [ 17 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Seeburg DS 160 Issue
PostPosted: Aug Tue 17, 2010 3:09 am 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep Fri 18, 2009 1:32 am
Posts: 582
Location: Philadelphia, PA
I just picked up a '62 Seeburg DS160 Jukebox that was sitting in a barn for an eternity and was chock full of dirt, droppings, and mouse mummies! I spent a long time cleaning and disinfecting the cabinet and cleaned up the mech. It looks pretty good for something that had been residing in a barn for so long. I recapped the selection receiver first, to get that working before tackling the amp. I've had a working AY 160 in the past, so I am somewhat familiar with the innards of this one, which is almost identical.

After recapping, the thing came to life and it will register credits and scan, but it will not stop to select the selected records. It just scans 2x then stops. My question is this. I've done some troubleshooting via a manual, but to no avail. One issue I am not sure of is the quality of the 2050 tube, since my store tube tester does not include data for it. Could a bad 2050 be causing the problem, or does anyone have any other suggestions? Thanks!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Aug Tue 17, 2010 3:36 am 
Member

Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 4290
Location: Boston, MA USA
Did you recap the read amplifier (the small chassis with the 12AX7)? There is a cap in there which failed on mine, causing the problem you describe.

The 2050 is a thyratron and is usually pretty reliable.

You will need a service manual to do anything with this machine. They are available from the usual jukebox sources.

-David


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Aug Tue 17, 2010 3:41 am 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep Fri 18, 2009 1:32 am
Posts: 582
Location: Philadelphia, PA
dberman51 wrote:
Did you recap the read amplifier (the small chassis with the 12AX7)? There is a cap in there which failed on mine, causing the problem you describe.

The 2050 is a thyratron and is usually pretty reliable.

You will need a service manual to do anything with this machine. They are available from the usual jukebox sources.

-David


Thanks for the input, David. I did recap the the read amp as well. I have a Seeburg Troubleshooting manual for my old AY160 (same guts) and have the full manual on order. I guess I need to know which variables to eliminate, and in what order.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Aug Tue 17, 2010 8:27 pm 
Member

Joined: Sep Sat 05, 2009 9:45 pm
Posts: 1210
Location: Sun City, Arizona 85373
Hi,
Seeburgs with the tormat system usually have that problem more than any other problem. Scan twice but no record pick up. When you get the manual there should be a step by step trouble shooting procedure for that tormat problem.

You can do a lot with a "D" cell battery for checking the "write in circuit". The other 1/2 of the system is the "read out" circuits. It could be a problem with the mechanism such as the trip coil or binding in the levers, clutch associated with tripping the mechanism at the correct record position.

I suggest searching for the "Seeburg scan twice" symptom at

http://jukebox.markmail.org/

Just type that in the search area.

Since it is a common difficulty there is probably lots there. You may also take a look on google for something like "Tony Millers Seeburg". Tony wrote books and helped many of us through the years. He had been a engineer at Seeburg. He recently passed away unfortunately. I think some of his work is still living on the internet.

David (juke47)[quote][/quote]


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Aug Tue 17, 2010 11:32 pm 
Member

Joined: Jul Tue 11, 2006 3:56 am
Posts: 1351
Location: Philadelphia, PA
I worked for a vending company starting in the mid 70s and spent over 25 years there. My old boss ran DS Seeburgs along with AY and AQ models. Theses developed several problems as they aged that were never covered in the original manuals. We kept them running and many served summer duty at the Jersey shore.

Older 2050s never gave too much problem but after 1976, RCA stopped making their own tubes. The Sylvania built but branded RCA were terrible tubes and I frequently had to change them again within a week.

See if the 0A2 tubes glow and flicker while scanning the mechanism with the service switch on. If they don't glow or don't flicker, you have a read out problem. Another problem is in the pulse amplifier module. Besides the cap that was mentioned, I had many that the 5.6 meg resistor goes way up in value and will cause the pulse amplifier to not work.

You could have broken pigtail wires on the block that rides the bottom of the Tormat memory. There are two for the ground buss and one each for left or right side readout.

There are also two contacts that will cause no read out. The RO contacts located behind the motor often get soaked with oil. This contact provides make and break function to prevent sparking at the memory unit contacts.

The W contact located in the front above the reversing switch completes the 2050 plate circuit to the trip coil while scanning. It too gets coated with oil and must be cleaned and dressed up for the mech to stop and play.

If your DS model has it's correct SHFA5 amplifier or even the earlier SHFA3 or 4 (as amps often got swapped for whatever was available), these used 7199 driver tubes. Every amp we had eventually developed bad distortion even after recapping the whole amp. Every one turned out to have a bad 220K resistor feeding the plate of the 7199 driver tube.

_________________
Fred
WA3KIO

Sundays at 5pm
WRDV-FM
www.wrdv.org
Your Oldies & Big Band Station


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Aug Tue 17, 2010 11:42 pm 
Member

Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 4290
Location: Boston, MA USA
Thanks for that excellent post. I'm about to begin my DS160 recap and it will be very helpful. I've noticed that many of the resistors have gone way up in value.

-David


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Aug Wed 18, 2010 2:09 pm 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep Fri 18, 2009 1:32 am
Posts: 582
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Wow Fred that certainly IS an excellent post, thank you so much for your trouble. It's exactly the kind of beyond-the-manual info I was hoping for. With that and the manual in hand, hopefully I can conquer this issue. I'll post more info and let you know how it goes.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Aug Wed 18, 2010 2:17 pm 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 14966
Location: Fernandina Beach, FL
Fred Rice wrote:
... Every amp we had eventually developed bad distortion even after recapping the whole amp. Every one turned out to have a bad 220K resistor feeding the plate of the 7199 driver tube.


Somewhat OT but I have had that same value (220K) feeding the plates of numerous Allied Radio Knight Kit amplifiers. They would often be way high in value or open. The symptom you described was the same. I would bet they were all from the same manufacturer. So, I am always suspect of plate resistors...

_________________
Don


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Aug Thu 19, 2010 4:39 am 
Member

Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 16306
Location: ID 83301
Fred Rice my hat is off to you . That was good !

Almost every one of those i worked on had those fine wires broken under the contact block that slides across the tormat . They got oil soaked & turned stiff .


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Aug Thu 19, 2010 11:51 pm 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 9508
Location: Beaver Falls, PA. USA
To add more information to Fred's post, all of the red or tan molded capacitors in the Seeburg amplifiers and Tormat receivers should be checked; they are usually leaky by now.

_________________
Tim KA3JRT


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Aug Fri 20, 2010 12:18 am 
Member

Joined: Jul Tue 11, 2006 3:56 am
Posts: 1351
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Tim, the brown "John E Fast" capacitors were no good when I was fixing these back in the 70s. The red Cornell Dubileers were often still good then. It's been 35 years so all of them should be changed now.

Ken G, we had a good exchange some years back when we spoke about the black and grey boxes of the 1970's. By the way, those wires on the contact block were problems even back then. I had a spool of copper braid in a cloth sleeve that went back to the electromechanical pinball days. I used to replace the wires with the braid which eliminated the wire breakage problem and cut way down on service calls. I have seen your posts on your Rockola and Wurlitzer jukes, very nice restorations on them.

Magic Brain, I see you are in the Philly area. You just might have one of our old Seeburgs. See if you have a two or three digit number stamped on either side or on the back into the wood. It would have the letters SHC with two or three numbers following the letters. We stamped our own ID number on every jukebox and kept a file of when they were bought and when they were sold. It would be something if it was one of our machines. We were one of the few operations in Philadelphia that didn't break up older working machines. We pulled the coin mechanisms out and sold them for home use.

_________________
Fred
WA3KIO

Sundays at 5pm
WRDV-FM
www.wrdv.org
Your Oldies & Big Band Station


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Aug Sat 21, 2010 3:24 am 
Member
User avatar

Joined: Sep Fri 18, 2009 1:32 am
Posts: 582
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Hey Fred...I think that this machine may not have been yours since I got it north Jersey, just outside of NYC. It was from a private home, however, so I will have to check for those numbers. Did you work for Terminal Amusement by any chance? The were in Oaklyn, NJ, just outside of Philly.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Aug Sat 21, 2010 12:22 pm 
Member

Joined: Jul Tue 11, 2006 3:56 am
Posts: 1351
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Hi MB, I knew some folks from Terminal Vending but never worked there. I was with Stan Harris Co. in the Juniata Park section of Philly. He retired in 1992 and sold the business to a pair of brothers. The company failed around 1996. It was a shame as during the earlier years, we had about 500 jukes out on location, mostly Seeburgs with about a half dozen of Rockola funiture jukeboxes. After Seeburg failed in the early 80's, we switched to Rowe AMI. My boss got a contract with Pizza Hut and I remember him asking me could we live with Rowe AMI boxes. We inherited about two dozen R-83 Rowe jukeboxes which I hated. I loved the R-84 and later machines. They stayed working.

_________________
Fred
WA3KIO

Sundays at 5pm
WRDV-FM
www.wrdv.org
Your Oldies & Big Band Station


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Seeburg DS 160 Issue
PostPosted: Nov Thu 12, 2015 4:53 pm 
New Member

Joined: Nov Thu 12, 2015 4:36 pm
Posts: 2
Trying to figure out what to do with my DS160. I bought it in '72, it's always been kept indoors and I only used it sporadically in my game room and up until this year it has been working fine (well the amp gave up years ago and I have been using solid state amp for the actual sound). Still have the amp in it but I just unplugged the audio panel.

This issue now is the sliding record player part just sits still with the record spindle turning. The actuator arm is locked to the side. I am afraid to force anything on this unit.

My ultimate goal is actually to sell this unit but I know I need to get it working again before I try.

So what kind of a job is "re capping". I assume this means changing out all the capacitors but does anyone have a service manual, parts list or any kind of documentation to get me started rather than removing them and trying to read the possibly too faded labels? And will bad or leaky capacitors mean I need new tubes too?

Not sure where to get started here or should I just sell it "as is"?

Thanks!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Seeburg qQ160 Issue
PostPosted: Nov Wed 25, 2015 2:50 am 
New Member

Joined: Nov Wed 25, 2015 2:23 am
Posts: 1
Working on 56 Q160 era which at least 2 resistors have failed in the L shaped pule amp. Thus the 2 pass scan but no trip. Battery test no results and usually yanking the RCA plug and plugging in will trip but no result. Seeburg book is handy, and one of the tests uses a test lamp. Turns out the test lamp is just a NEON NE56 bulb with 2 clip leads attached. But as stated in here, you can see the action of the R/O of the tormat in the 2 0A2 tubes. Its also interesting to note, that these are regulating -152 volts and not positive voltages, which they are delivering to the pulse amp. So the pulse amp 12AX7 is running on negative rather than positive voltage. There is also a discrepancy in these, the 6AX4 dual diode tube in the model I am working on, is above the 2 0A2 tubes rather than to the left. Clearly marked on the chassis.
Anyhow mine has a 470K resistor that is wide open. I have not checked the 5.6 Megohm resistor yet because the meter I was using only went to 2M so it did not read at all. I am planning also to change the 57K in there that is reading closer to 65K. Taking the grey coover off the access door exposes the underside of the Selection Unit, for testing much better. If you just probe the output of the pulse amp while scanning will cause the 2050 to trip the coil in a 60- cycle rapidly. Dont keep it on there too long. But is an easy check to know lacking of output from the pulse amp. Battery trick is shown in the manual and tried that with no results.

Plan to try again once I have replaced the faulty resistors in the pulse amp. Have replaced the 2 0A2 tubes of which one refused to glow and the other looked to glow too much. Now they both glow and flicker during scan cycle.

Now if anyone does read this, I am still to figure out why now when you make a selection, it does not trip the scan coil/relay. I also see that they removed the 2050 tube from the stepper unit, and the stepper rotary switches are not working (stuck) but since there is no wallbox does not appear to be worth repairing. So now just still to figure why it does not trip the scan coil or scan relay in the upper left. Possibly a dirty contact someplace.

I am also going to check the cam switches as it is sparking during the scan so may need to adjust the block and/or timing of the switch that sits in front of the motor, which was a common problem. And it was oil soaked. Yeah one of the reccomended fixes is to replace the wires going to the R/O pins on the block with braided wires.
The best source is to use wires from damaged speakers work very well. Usually did not encounter much problems with those in the years.

Just a swipe with a soft cloth, then a tiny dab of phono lube grease with your finger. Just a film is all it needed. And just a drop of light oil to assure they are not sticking.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Seeburg DS 160 Issue
PostPosted: Dec Tue 01, 2015 11:39 am 
Member

Joined: Sep Sat 05, 2009 9:45 pm
Posts: 1210
Location: Sun City, Arizona 85373
Thanks to all for all of the jukebox discussions in above posts. I copied it down for myself and others. I've always blindly worked on the Tormat components sort of shot gunning all caps and resistors. They always have worked well for me after that.

Is anyone familiar with the modifications, to the Tormat system made by one or more companies (RJB was one) in the restoration process of Seeburg jukeboxes of that era. I am doing a Seeburg V with those modifications. The modified Tormat system works well but I hate not, at least, having a schematic. I knew RJB from the Pasedena Fun Fair years ago. They seemed to sell restored machines for commercial/home use in 50's style diners with the mods. All tubes associated with the Tormat are gone, there are some added diodes resistors etc. RJB is in California now and I have talked to them about a schematic. They said send the TSU in and they would repair it if it needed repair but no schematic. I still would like to have a schematic even though the modified system works well and probably will continue to. Probably draw it out best I can. I am unsure if it is a modification by them or someone else.

Seeburg did a good job of making it nearly impossible to get a plug into a wrong socket. I (friend actually) found (hard way) that the TSU on mine now has two 11 pin plugs and sockets. No markings whatsoever. It could have been a disaster, when I mixed them up, but only turned out to be a big time waster. Got em marked now! I will always look, as a first thing, for replaced sockets, on the TSU, that will probably be mounted with screws instead of rivets in the future!

David (Geritol Ghetto)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Seeburg DS 160 Issue
PostPosted: Aug Fri 30, 2019 4:33 am 
New Member

Joined: Nov Thu 12, 2015 4:36 pm
Posts: 2
Have 4 years passed since I asked my question here? I'm still trying to decide to sell the jukebox or to repair it. Can anyone point to these manuals you are discussing. My unit is kept indoors and rodent free but I am sure it needs new capacitors. I haven't worked on a tube circuit since the 70's so it's not going to be fun and I have a feeling I'm going to have 400V running through me before the project's over.


Top
 Profile  
 
Post New Topic Post Reply  [ 17 posts ]  Moderator: Alan Voorhees

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: PickMyTurntable and 8 guests



Search for:
Jump to:  


























-->


Privacy Policy :: Powered by phpBB