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PostPosted: Dec Tue 21, 2010 6:45 am 
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Joined: Dec Mon 28, 2009 6:07 am
Posts: 33
Location: Atlanta, GA
i'll try that. very practical


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Dec Tue 21, 2010 6:56 am 
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Joined: Apr Wed 09, 2008 3:37 am
Posts: 14346
Location: Little Rock, Arkansas
Another thing you should do is clean the inside of the turrets with lacquer thinner. I use either a Q-tip (for General Industries turrets) or a pipe cleaner (for Alliance turrets) to clean the inside of each turret. Try to avoid getting lacquer thinner on the rubber part of the turret. You'll be surprised at how much old black oil and grit are inside the turrets. Also, don't assume that a new or rebuilt turret is clean inside either... I've found several rebuilt turrets just as dirty inside as the other turrets on the changer. Clean the turret mounting posts with lacquer thinner on a Q-tip as well, and then put some turbine oil on a Q-tip and go around each post before reinstalling the turrets.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Dec Tue 21, 2010 7:17 am 
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Joined: Apr Wed 09, 2008 3:37 am
Posts: 14346
Location: Little Rock, Arkansas
In case you don't know which motor system you have, this drawing shows the General Industries system on the left, and Alliance system on the right

Image


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Dec Tue 21, 2010 7:40 am 
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Joined: Dec Mon 28, 2009 6:07 am
Posts: 33
Location: Atlanta, GA
the image didn't show


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Dec Tue 21, 2010 7:48 am 
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Joined: Apr Wed 09, 2008 3:37 am
Posts: 14346
Location: Little Rock, Arkansas
The image shows on my computer. That's strange.

Click on this link:

http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z313 ... motors.jpg


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Dec Tue 21, 2010 8:04 am 
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Joined: Dec Mon 28, 2009 6:07 am
Posts: 33
Location: Atlanta, GA
as soon as i posted that, it showed. slow download i guess. sorry. yeah - i have the general industries. the whole motor seems flimsy - i've tried tightening parts. tomorrow, i'm going to re-clean the motor and turrets and see what happens. thanks!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Dec Tue 21, 2010 8:10 am 
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Joined: Apr Wed 09, 2008 3:37 am
Posts: 14346
Location: Little Rock, Arkansas
As long as the motor shaft is spinning real good, don't worry about the motor itself. Just clean those turrets inside and out. You can use Q-tips since you have the GI system. And, don't forget to clean the inside rim of the platter to remove any grease or oil that might be on the platter rim where the idler rides. If you don't have any lacquer thinner, you can use household degreaser to clean the inside of the turrets.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Dec Tue 21, 2010 8:23 am 
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Joined: Apr Wed 09, 2008 3:37 am
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Location: Little Rock, Arkansas
The turret holding mechanism, consisting of two parts, is designed to have a lot of play in it, so don't be too concerned about that. If those parts were tightened totally up, you couldn't change speeds on the record changer.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Dec Tue 21, 2010 8:23 pm 
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Joined: Dec Mon 28, 2009 6:07 am
Posts: 33
Location: Atlanta, GA
Update....

From start to finish, here's what i've done/replaced:

1. recapped the amp and it sounds and works great

2. replaced the three motor mounts

3. replaced the tiny grommets that are attached to the turntable speed knob

4. replaced the 33 RPM turret

5. replaced the idler wheel

6. restored the motor: (a) re-oiled the bushings, (b) cleaned the motor and dried it (using household degreaser and q-tips), (c) put it back together following instructions given by Larry

7. removed the turrets and idler wheel: (a) clean all of the above with household degreaser, (b) wiped off all of the above with a paper towel, (c) cleaned the turret mounting posts with household degreaser and wiped them off with a paper towel, (d) using Zoom Spout, oiled the mounting posts and idler wheel post, but not the motor shaft.

8. cleaned the turntable rim with household degreaser

here's what happened:

1. at first it started playing (all speeds), but 33RPM was a full step slower. I was just happy that it was working again. I figured I would do a better job on restoring the motor the second time around, so I plan to restore the motor again (third time is the charm, they say).

2. after some time at 33RPM, however, the turntable just stopped. 78RPM always works, no matter what. 45RPM is hit or miss and 16RPM seems to consistently play, but 33RPM is becoming an issue. It doesn't like to keep going.

Ugh! A little less discouraged than yesterday for sure. I'm going to do steps 6,7, & 8 again. Any other suggestions would be great appreciated. Would it help if i took video and posted it somewhere? if so, where should I post it?

Thanks.

Tony


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Dec Tue 21, 2010 9:26 pm 
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Joined: Jan Mon 25, 2010 7:51 am
Posts: 2729
Location: Toledo, Ohio
Do you have a GI or Alliance motor? I find the GI motors SUCK and the majority of them I have come across have had the exact same problem you are stating. I usually yank them and replace them with the Alliance motors.

I think the issue is the GI motors have a sealed type bearing and it is difficult if not near impossible to get the old grease-oil out of them. The old grease-oil gets thick when cool and the motor starts very slow and only gets up to speed once that old grease gets warm and loosens up. The turret and idler design sucks as well they are notoriously sloppy with that felt seal at the bottom you have to use very little oil or they sling it everywhere and cause slipping. I hate when I open a player and see one of those.

The Alliance motors have an open style bearing where you can see the wick inside. You can clean these very very easily and thy work great once cleaned and re-oiled. The turrets have a nice, easy and positive snap fit that works great and is much cleaner.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Dec Tue 21, 2010 10:01 pm 
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Joined: Dec Mon 28, 2009 6:07 am
Posts: 33
Location: Atlanta, GA
thanks bastardbus (love that handle!),
where could i purchase the alliance motor? how much should i expect to spend? any other opinions on this? i'm chomping at the bit and sooooo close to hearing glorious sounds.

tony


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Dec Tue 21, 2010 10:22 pm 
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Joined: Apr Wed 09, 2008 3:37 am
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Location: Little Rock, Arkansas
New revision of what to do:

Tony, your GI motor is just fine. It is very important to use lacquer thinner on the bottom bushing, and on the top bushing also, working the top bushing up and down on the shaft to get the lacquer thinner inside there. There usually is a tiny hole on the top bearing assembly also. Pour some lacquer thinner through that hole to flush it out good. Do this several times. For the bottom bushing, fill the bottom hole with lacquer thinner and swab it out with Q-tips. Do this with several different Q-tips until no oil shows up on the swab.

Re-oil both bushings with turbine oil. Fill the bottom hole with turbine oil and let it set a few minutes, then turn it over and shake the excess out. Clean and oil both the top and bottom shaft of the rotor. Oil the top bushing and work it up and down on the rotor shaft to get the oil inside. Don't over-oil the top bushing or it will work its way up the motor shaft and get on the turrets at some future time.

To reassemble and align the motor, this is how you do it, and it may be that your bushings aren't properly aligned which is causing a speed slowdown.

With both turret holding mounting plates off, install the main mounting plate on the motor and finger tighten the screws. Rap on the sides of the motor with the rubber end of a screwdriver, then lift up the motor shaft and spin it, drop it, spin it, drop it, etc...

Tighten each screw a little more and repeat the rapping on the sides of the motor and spinning the motor shaft. Do this three or four times as you tighten up the screws. Then, once the screws are totally tight, rap again and lift and spin and motor shaft one last time, and your bushings will be perfectly aligned. Then, reinstall the turret mounting plates on top of the motor.


Last edited by Larry H on Dec Tue 21, 2010 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Dec Tue 21, 2010 10:28 pm 
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Joined: Apr Wed 09, 2008 3:37 am
Posts: 14346
Location: Little Rock, Arkansas
I have worked on many of these players with both the GI and Alliance brands. The GI motors are far easier to service, they are quieter when done, and I like them a lot better than the Alliance motors. The GI idler can be changed by simply removing the clip above the idler, install a new idler, and replace the clip. It's that simple. On the Alliance system, the idler arm has to be totally removed, then the new idler is installed with a clip underneath the idler. The spring has to be removed and reinstalled as well.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Dec Tue 21, 2010 10:38 pm 
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Joined: Jan Mon 25, 2010 7:51 am
Posts: 2729
Location: Toledo, Ohio
moses_007 wrote:
I have worked on many of these players with both the GI and Alliance brands. The GI motors are far easier to service, they are quieter when done, and I like them a lot better than the Alliance motors. The GI idler can be changed by simply removing the clip above the idler, install a new idler, and replace the clip. It's that simple. On the Alliance system, the idler arm has to be totally removed, then the new idler is installed with a clip underneath the idler. The spring has to be removed and reinstalled as well.



Larry, I am guessing there is possibly different GI motors. The ones I speak of have sealed bearings on the top and bottom of the armature. They have actual seals on the inner bushing and the outer bushing where the oil hole is there is just enough space between the bushing and the housing for the bushing to move but that is it, she is a tight fit. On this model there is no way to actually flush the wick efficiently none the less be able to visably see the wick at all to note that it is clean and hat makes me wonder if you are talking about the Alliance motor and not the GI or possibly GI made different style bearings through the years and we are speaking of two different styles. The 7HF4 that I just sold here had a GI with completely sealed bearings. Despite that, I soaked them in Laquer thinner for 24 hours dried and even shot carb cleaner and blew air through em what I could with my compressor and they still had the old stuff in there and had issues.

I am going to check and see if I can snap some pics of the ones I have sitting here loose and see what bearings they have. You have any pics of yours? Curious to figure that out.

Either way I would gladly trade you GI motors for Alliance motors if you like. Drop me an IM I have two or three here right now.

Tony, you have to find a used motor off another RCA you can not buy them new (as far as I know). I have got some of the GIs to work just fine but have then again had the same issue you have had several times with the GI motors. I have never had an issue with the Alliance motors and their open style bearings. Maybe we can get Larry to swap us for some GIs.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Dec Tue 21, 2010 11:24 pm 
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Joined: Apr Wed 09, 2008 3:37 am
Posts: 14346
Location: Little Rock, Arkansas
Todd, I think you're right...believe both bearings are sealed on the GI motors. My mind today has been on packing up for a Christmas trip to Texas, so I wasn't thinking straight when I posted that. However, a good cleaning with lacquer thinner on Q-tips and flushing them the best I can has always done the trick for those that I have serviced. They start every time right up to speed. My SHF-4, SHF-6, SHF-7 and high fidelity attachment unit all have GI motors. The portable 8-HFP-1 New Orthophonic that I just finished also has a GI motor.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Dec Tue 21, 2010 11:34 pm 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
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Location: Boston, MA USA
Wait a minute -- Tony's problem is obviously not the motor. In his posts he states that 78RPM works just fine. That speed is the hardest for the motor to maintain. If 78 is working properly, he can forget about changing or further lubricating the motor.

We need to find another tree to bark up.

-David


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Dec Tue 21, 2010 11:34 pm 
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Joined: Apr Wed 09, 2008 3:37 am
Posts: 14346
Location: Little Rock, Arkansas
Come to think of it, I don't have a single Alliance motor RCA in the house right now. I've sold all the players that had them.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Dec Tue 21, 2010 11:36 pm 
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Joined: Apr Wed 09, 2008 3:37 am
Posts: 14346
Location: Little Rock, Arkansas
dberman51 wrote:
Wait a minute -- Tony's problem is obviously not the motor. In his posts he states that 78RPM works just fine. That speed is the hardest for the motor to maintain. If 78 is working properly, he can forget about changing or further lubricating the motor.

We need to find another tree to bark up.

-David


You may be right. If that's the case, then his 33rpm turret is faulty. Maybe that turret is a tad big in diameter.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Dec Tue 21, 2010 11:51 pm 
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Joined: Jan Mon 25, 2010 7:51 am
Posts: 2729
Location: Toledo, Ohio
If 78 or any one speed is working fine but the others are not (I will be honest I did not read the entire thread) then yes the motor should definitely be fine. Take a peak up under at the motor and armature when it is on in 78 and all the other speeds. Is it spinning at the same speed for each turntable setting? If so it ain't the motor it is in the turrets.

We are all cheapskates and try to get buy using these old wheels and turrets by reconditioning them with laquer thinner or sanding them and you are right and more then likely he should replace all the turrets and idler wheel. Nothing like fresh new rubber on there.

Larry, that is crazy the majority of mine are all Alliance. I only have had a couple GIs come across my plate maybe 3-4 at most. A couple have worked fine and the others do that slow start thing till they are warm. I have one I cleaned the motor bearings like 3-4 times and it still does it. I can always tell which one is going to give me troubles as you can smell the old oil-grease and when you pull the armature you can see the thick, sticky gooey oil down in the bearing. I am almost wondering if someone oiled these with a sub par product in years past and that is what is thickening up in there. Being the bearing is sealed it is just near impossible to get out. I do have a 6HF5 here with a GI and it works just fine.

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Last edited by bastardbus on Dec Tue 21, 2010 11:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Dec Tue 21, 2010 11:52 pm 
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Joined: Apr Wed 09, 2008 3:37 am
Posts: 14346
Location: Little Rock, Arkansas
Tony, you really need to flush those motor bearings with lacquer thinner. Using household degreaser on the motor bearings might not have removed all of the old oil/grease.


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