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 Post subject: Re: BSR StereoMaster Flip Down Record Player -No Audio, Just
PostPosted: May Tue 28, 2019 7:06 pm 
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Joined: Aug Tue 24, 2010 8:56 pm
Posts: 5673
Location: Northeast Florida
You've got two issues going on here, a dead crystal cartridge and a grounding problem.

If you touch the red wire of the cartridge with your finger, do you hear a hum through the speakers? If so, the amp is working at least somewhat.

You'll hear music from the cartridge on any record player--that's just the sound of the needle in the grooves, and it's no indication of cartridge health

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 Post subject: Re: BSR StereoMaster Flip Down Record Player -No Audio, Just
PostPosted: May Tue 28, 2019 7:21 pm 
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Joined: May Tue 21, 2019 9:06 pm
Posts: 24
tubes4life wrote:
You've got two issues going on here, a dead crystal cartridge and a grounding problem.

If you touch the red wire of the cartridge with your finger, do you hear a hum through the speakers? If so, the amp is working at least somewhat.

You'll hear music from the cartridge on any record player--that's just the sound of the needle in the grooves, and it's no indication of cartridge health


I don't hear any difference but I do hear a little bit of static when I plug and unplug the red wire from the cartridge. I've cleaned the contacts with Deoxit with no change.


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 Post subject: Re: BSR StereoMaster Flip Down Record Player -No Audio, Just
PostPosted: May Wed 29, 2019 2:15 am 
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Joined: Feb Wed 04, 2015 12:26 am
Posts: 949
Jdc,

Could I please have a good, clear shot of the filters and how they are wired?

You might have to host it offsite like on tinypic.com

You mentioned that you lost a cap in an earlier post, was this cap ever reinstalled?


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 Post subject: Re: BSR StereoMaster Flip Down Record Player -No Audio, Just
PostPosted: May Wed 29, 2019 2:36 pm 
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Joined: May Tue 21, 2019 9:06 pm
Posts: 24
Artcurus wrote:
Jdc,

Could I please have a good, clear shot of the filters and how they are wired?

You might have to host it offsite like on tinypic.com

You mentioned that you lost a cap in an earlier post, was this cap ever reinstalled?


I'm glad you asked that. I will post a clearer picture later this afternoon.

As for the lost cap, it's the .05 mfd 400v axial cap you are referring to. Turns out I hadn't really lost it, my pit bull got hold of it and chewed it. I'll check for sure later, but this cap was connected between two points on the second (lower?) tube port.

Couple more questions if I could:

1) Where can I find a replacement for this cap? What can I use in its place?
2) I'm guessing this is a mid 60s turntable. Does the fact that I'm plugging it into a modern outlet have anything to with the hum?


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 Post subject: Re: BSR StereoMaster Flip Down Record Player -No Audio, Just
PostPosted: May Wed 29, 2019 8:13 pm 
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Joined: May Tue 21, 2019 9:06 pm
Posts: 24
Here's how I have the new caps wired. The soldering is temporary. Circled in yellow is where that .05 400V axial cap was soldered between.

Image

Here's an above shot.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: BSR StereoMaster Flip Down Record Player -No Audio, Just
PostPosted: May Thu 30, 2019 4:04 am 
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Joined: Feb Wed 04, 2015 12:26 am
Posts: 949
Okay, there's no question that missing cap could be the problem, along with cold solder joints. If there is a loose connection, and yes, a cold solder joint might be not obvious at first. Redo the connections, verifying that the wires are in the correct place. You might be better using a terminal board like this

https://www.amazon.com/Terminal-Strip-C ... 231&sr=8-1

go here

http://www.tuberadios.com/capacitors/

contact Sal and order this capacitor in place of the .05.

.047uf @ 630v

You can also get the terminal strip to clean the solder connections up.

As for the other question. No, makes no difference at all.


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 Post subject: Re: BSR StereoMaster Flip Down Record Player -No Audio, Just
PostPosted: May Thu 30, 2019 1:31 pm 
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Joined: May Tue 21, 2019 9:06 pm
Posts: 24
Email with order sent. Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: BSR StereoMaster Flip Down Record Player -No Audio, Just
PostPosted: May Thu 30, 2019 5:09 pm 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 4275
Location: Boston, MA USA
You're still not going to get any sound until you do something about the cartridge. As this unit has only one tube per channel, finding a cartridge with high enough output voltage is going to be a problem. You could check with Gary at thevoiceofmusic.com for his advice about what is available. But before you put more money in, think about what you will end up with. This phono is a real low-ender and its performance is always going to be limited.

-David


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 Post subject: Re: BSR StereoMaster Flip Down Record Player -No Audio, Just
PostPosted: May Thu 30, 2019 5:20 pm 
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Joined: May Tue 21, 2019 9:06 pm
Posts: 24
dberman51 wrote:
You're still not going to get any sound until you do something about the cartridge. As this unit has only one tube per channel, finding a cartridge with high enough output voltage is going to be a problem. You could check with Gary at thevoiceofmusic.com for his advice about what is available. But before you put more money in, think about what you will end up with. This phono is a real low-ender and its performance is always going to be limited.

-David


I appreciate your advice, but I wasn't expecting anything great to come out of getting this thing to play. It has, in my opinion, been the perfect project for learning the ins and outs of record players and restoration. It's been a lot of fun so far.


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 Post subject: Re: BSR StereoMaster Flip Down Record Player -No Audio, Just
PostPosted: Jun Sun 02, 2019 2:30 am 
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Joined: Aug Tue 24, 2010 8:56 pm
Posts: 5673
Location: Northeast Florida
You can probably find a crystal cartridge that will work here http://www.thevoiceofmusic.com/catalog/ ... erview.asp

Gary tests every cartridge he sells, so it won't be dead on arrival.

But the missing capacitor issue must be resolved before proceeding any further

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 Post subject: Re: BSR StereoMaster Flip Down Record Player -No Audio, Just
PostPosted: Jun Wed 05, 2019 9:13 pm 
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Joined: May Tue 21, 2019 9:06 pm
Posts: 24
Got a replacement cartridge from Gary, installed, can now hear music from the speakers. The hum remains. Still waiting on the replacement .047 cap. Will post again once it arrives and I install it. Thanks for everyone's help so far!


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 Post subject: Re: BSR StereoMaster Flip Down Record Player -No Audio, Just
PostPosted: Jun Fri 07, 2019 12:26 am 
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Joined: May Tue 21, 2019 9:06 pm
Posts: 24
Replace the .047 cap, hum was less for sure! Everything sounded great!...until I foolishly went to reassemble everything and apparently wasn't careful because I pretty much destroyed the two circled resistors in the pic attached.

The big brown one should be 100 ohm but what wattage should I use to replace it?

The smaller one looks like Brown, Black, Red, which is 1 ohm. Can anyone check my work please?

EDIT: Note, this is an older pic.

I salvaged a 100 ohm resistor and a 1 ohm resistor and tried them out for experimentation. No music can be heard but that damn hum is louder than ever. Before, the hum would go away as you turned the volume down. Now it's extremely loud regardless of the volume level. Resistors were not hot to the touch.

I seriously hope I didn't destroy anything. Any help is appreciated.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: BSR StereoMaster Flip Down Record Player -No Audio, Just
PostPosted: Jun Fri 07, 2019 2:54 am 
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Joined: Feb Wed 04, 2015 12:26 am
Posts: 949
5 watt ceramic will work


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 Post subject: Re: BSR StereoMaster Flip Down Record Player -No Audio, Just
PostPosted: Jun Fri 07, 2019 3:45 am 
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Joined: Jan Wed 16, 2013 12:04 am
Posts: 1583
Location: 77001
Quote:"The smaller one looks like Brown, Black, Red, which is 1 ohm.
Can anyone check my work please?"

Incorrect resistor value. Brown/Black/Red = 1000 Ohms, not 1 Ohm.


https://www.digikey.com/en/resources/co ... ode-4-band


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 Post subject: Re: BSR StereoMaster Flip Down Record Player -No Audio, Just
PostPosted: Jun Fri 07, 2019 6:49 pm 
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Joined: May Tue 21, 2019 9:06 pm
Posts: 24
Hotwax wrote:
Quote:"The smaller one looks like Brown, Black, Red, which is 1 ohm.
Can anyone check my work please?"

Incorrect resistor value. Brown/Black/Red = 1000 Ohms, not 1 Ohm.


https://www.digikey.com/en/resources/co ... ode-4-band


Okay, got a 1K resistor in there. Still the same loud hum no matter where the volume controls are.

I really screwed something up, didn't I? Did I kill the cartridge? Tubes?


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 Post subject: Re: BSR StereoMaster Flip Down Record Player -No Audio, Just
PostPosted: Jun Fri 07, 2019 8:26 pm 
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Joined: Jan Wed 16, 2013 12:04 am
Posts: 1583
Location: 77001
Jdc wrote:
Okay, got a 1K resistor in there. Still the same loud hum no matter where the volume controls are.
I really screwed something up, didn't I? Did I kill the cartridge? Tubes?

First, re-check all the resistors' values again.
If out of spec, replace.

At this point, since components are more or less
replaced, would other members here consider it time for some
circuit voltage checks ?

What is your electronics repair experience level ?

You should have an experienced person do the voltage readings
with you, to educate you on safety checks.
The energized chassis will have dangerous high voltages
in the circuit.

Finding a local vintage radio club to attend for
In-person assistance will be very helpful.
They could help you draw the schematic out on paper.

I have sharpened up the possible "working schematic" that someone posted
earlier in this thread and have attached.

Did you try to verify if your amp's components check as
equal (more or less) against the schematic's components ?

These simple amps are difficult to really damage to the
point of no return.

I'll let others guide you on what might be appropriate for
next troubleshooting steps.

https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/049/6/60FX5.pdf

Hotwax


Attachments:
60FX5 Stereo.jpg
60FX5 Stereo.jpg [ 168.11 KiB | Viewed 325 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: BSR StereoMaster Flip Down Record Player -No Audio, Just
PostPosted: Jun Fri 07, 2019 10:50 pm 
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Joined: May Tue 21, 2019 9:06 pm
Posts: 24
Hotwax wrote:
Jdc wrote:
Okay, got a 1K resistor in there. Still the same loud hum no matter where the volume controls are.


What is your electronics repair experience level ?


Hotwax


Got into board level work about 5 years ago in repairing my first TV...pretty much all I do nowadays. I kind of know my way around a switch-mode power supply. Can check components, can use a multimeter, but any helpful advice is appreciated. This is my first turntable.

I'm just bummed. I had it working great for a few minutes and then got stupid.

Rechecked the diode, 100 ohm resistor, and the 1K resistor. Checked the potentiometers. Unplugged the cartridge, no change. What else could I have damaged? The tubes? I have to believe it's something simple.


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 Post subject: Re: BSR StereoMaster Flip Down Record Player -No Audio, Just
PostPosted: Jun Sat 08, 2019 12:20 am 
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Joined: Jan Wed 16, 2013 12:04 am
Posts: 1583
Location: 77001
Well, you're not dumb. All of us have made mistakes.
How about a good overview photo of that chassis,
no close ups, and pare down the size a bit.

1. Visually re-check all of your work.
Look for any pieces of components that might
be touching where they shouldn't. Solder bits especially.

Bump the chassis on the table in several dimensions, to make sure any
lost bits of solder or wire come out.

2. With the hum returning, might be worth checking the e-lytic caps for
becoming "open" or "shorted." Must be removed from circuit,
if to use a DMM.

3. Check the tube sockets for good connections with tube pins.
Gently twist tubes in sockets while power on, to see if you
get any noise. Use a piece of cloth, as they are hot power
tubes.

4. Check audio signal path wiring for bad connections,
solder joints, et cetera.

Hotwax


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 Post subject: Re: BSR StereoMaster Flip Down Record Player -No Audio, Just
PostPosted: Jun Sat 08, 2019 12:38 am 
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Joined: May Tue 21, 2019 9:06 pm
Posts: 24
Hotwax wrote:
Well, you're not dumb. All of us have made mistakes.
How about a good overview photo of that chassis,
no close ups, and pare down the size a bit.

1. Visually re-check all of your work.
Look for any pieces of components that might
be touching where they shouldn't. Solder bits especially.

Bump the chassis on the table in several dimensions, to make sure any
lost bits of solder or wire come out.

2. With the hum returning, might be worth checking the e-lytic caps for
becoming "open" or "shorted." Must be removed from circuit,
if to use a DMM.

3. Check the tube sockets for good connections with tube pins.
Gently twist tubes in sockets while power on, to see if you
get any noise. Use a piece of cloth, as they are hot power
tubes.

4. Check audio signal path wiring for bad connections,
solder joints, et cetera.

Hotwax


I've pretty much resoldered everything I knowingly soldered at this point. I've already replaced the caps (again), wiggled the tubes and swapped them out with the old ones. *sigh* But since this is my only project right now, I'll go down your list again. May as well.

The only thing(s) that have changed so far are replacing the above mentioned resistors. Could I have blown the tubes? They still glow (but as I've learned from this thread, that doesn't mean much). I know next to nothing about tubes, hence why I'm asking.

EDIT: I'm pretty sure I didn't blow the tubes. They don't look or feel like it.


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 Post subject: Re: BSR StereoMaster Flip Down Record Player -No Audio, Just
PostPosted: Jun Sat 08, 2019 4:33 am 
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Joined: Feb Wed 04, 2015 12:26 am
Posts: 949
As HW said, it's time to get to voltage checks with a meter. We can move forward from there


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