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 Post subject: Motorola VM record changer problems
PostPosted: May Fri 24, 2019 1:39 pm 
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Location: Sarasota, Florida
Greetings everyone -- for as many years as I've been active on this forum, I think this is the first message I've ever posted in the Phonographs section.

Last year my daughter and son-in-law purchased a Motorola console stereo, circa 1962 model. It has been fun; watching the "young" people shop for LP's excitedly, and even more fun teaching them how to operate it!

Just recently she texted me, saying the records sounded "wobbly." Since we're coming to visit, (we're here now) I told her I'm happy to look at it.

SO -- turn it on, nothing happens. Removed the platter, motor is bound up to where it won't turn. Pulled the player from the cabinet to have a better look, and there are rubber crumbs all over the motor area. Removed and cleaned the idler, cleaned the rubber dust, and used some WD-40 on the upper motor bearing (while holding the player sideways 90 degrees) to try and clean the crap from the bearing.

Motor is now free. Cleaned the idler with alcohol, and noticed a flat spot on it. Reassembled, platter barely moves and I hear a metallic scraping sound, all speeds.

Now for comments. What happened? My assumption is that the idler shaft had old lubricant and was not turning easily. Also I noticed that the idler does not sit properly against the motor cams -- it sits too high, with only part of the rubber touching the cam at each speed. Can't explain the flat spot; mechanism pulls away when the player shuts off, and there was no flutter in the past, meaning I don't think this was abuse from a former owner or from sitting before they bought it.

There's a Voice of Music website; it appears the idler is a 1477. A number underneath the player, which I can only assume is a model number, is 8570301242 158. I can have my son-in-law send in this one and get a rebuilt trade, but I can't find any height adjustments for the motor spindle, and I'm not sure why the idler isn't properly contacting the platter -- is the clearance so tight that a little rubber loss will make it scrape? I'm open for comments. I'm also curious as to what lubricant to use, when all is said and done, that is readily available. I have a variety, but it's all 500 miles away.

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Gary Tayman, Sarasota, Florida


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 Post subject: Re: Motorola VM record changer problems
PostPosted: May Fri 24, 2019 2:15 pm 
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Joined: Feb Wed 04, 2015 12:26 am
Posts: 940
Make sure that the bearing assembly at the base of the turntable was put back together and that all washers are in place. The idler
can redone. Contact Gary at voiceofmusic.com

Be advised that if this is a tube unit, it must rebuilt electronically. A cascade failure of certain parts could take out irreplaceable parts at best, start a house fire at worst


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 Post subject: Re: Motorola VM record changer problems
PostPosted: May Fri 24, 2019 2:31 pm 
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Joined: Jan Wed 16, 2013 12:04 am
Posts: 1567
Location: 77001
Hi Gary,
We need a photo of the V-M model 1242-158 record changer top and bottom,
to determine changer family design.
There are a couple of differences in the early 1960's models' idler/motor drive
set up, but the cycling mechanism should be similar.

1. Do not use WD40 as a lubricant, in general.
Use turbine oil for lubrication. Zoom-spout is good.

2. The motor needs to be dis-assembled, bearing
housings soaked in 91% isopropyl alcohol x 24-48 hrs , then left to dry x 24 hrs.
Lube the fiber oil pads in bearings with turbine oil and re-assemble motor.

Motor mounts need to be replaced. Gary at Voice of Music has them.
This is a main reason why idler wheel rim can be off center
from the motor speed cam.

The changer for best results should be dis-assembled and thoroughly
cleaned of all old grease and re-lubed properly.

3. Idler flat spot can be from changer not completing cycle,
and idler not pulled back from motor speed cam and left
for a long time this way.

Idler mount shaft should be cleaned & lubed.
Check that there are paper or brass washers at base
of idler shaft that idler sits on.

And, yes check that platter upper and lower bearing washers
are in place, as Arcturus points out.

3.a. If the idler rubber is dried out and hard, there will be
almost zero drive friction. Then you may have a ceramic
on steel kind of noise, when it contacts the platter rim.

4. Arcturus gives good advice re: electronic service.
If this is a tube amp, you risk damage to
pricey components, such as the power transformer.

Would not recommend powering up the unit, until serviced properly.
Minimum of all electrolytic and wax/paper capacitors replaced.

Hotwax


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 Post subject: Re: Motorola VM record changer problems
PostPosted: May Fri 24, 2019 3:32 pm 
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Joined: Sep Thu 28, 2006 12:51 pm
Posts: 9349
Location: Sarasota, Florida
As for rebuilt, it WAS rebuild by an ARF member. Then again, the only work I really trust is what I do myself. But I've been told it's been completely recapped.

The motor mounts make sense. The flat spot has all the indications of a player that had been unplugged without shutting off, and left thaat way for years. But that creates flutter, which was not present the last time I visited. That's why I'm scratching my head.

I remember from days past, certain record players had a very small clearance, to the point where a little wear on the idler would cause it to scrape the frame or something. Assuming this is the case, but don't know.

The dilemma here, I'm only here for a few days. If he sends out the idler and gets a rebuilt one, I want to ensure that it'll work when he puts it back in == instead of me making a 1000 mile round trip, or waiting till next year when I return.


Thanks!

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Gary Tayman, Sarasota, Florida


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 Post subject: Re: Motorola VM record changer problems
PostPosted: May Fri 24, 2019 6:59 pm 
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Joined: Jan Wed 16, 2013 12:04 am
Posts: 1567
Location: 77001
Second request: please post photos.

quote: "I remember from days past, certain record players had a very small clearance, to the point where a little wear on the idler would cause it to scrape the frame or something. Assuming this is the case, but don't know."

Your above thinking should not be the case with a V-M changer.

What may end up being most efficient is to have one of us
rebuild the changer for your family. (not soliciting here, ha ha !)
H


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 Post subject: Re: Motorola VM record changer problems
PostPosted: May Fri 24, 2019 8:33 pm 
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Location: Sarasota, Florida
Attachment:
player.JPG
player.JPG [ 22 KiB | Viewed 446 times ]


This is about the best I can do using my cell phone and laptop. It's obviously back together at the moment.

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Gary Tayman, Sarasota, Florida


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 Post subject: Re: Motorola VM record changer problems
PostPosted: May Fri 24, 2019 9:04 pm 
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Joined: Jan Wed 16, 2013 12:04 am
Posts: 1567
Location: 77001
Thank you for the photo.
With slight differences in on/off/rej and speed selector controls,
your changer falls into the 1234 to 1265 V-M series.

In the photo with the platter removed, there is an
adjustment ( see # 90 ) idler height screw for raising
or lowering the idler wheel.
The screw may need a drop of oil, if it is hard to
turn.

But, still recommend you have the service done that I detailed
earlier (motor rebuild & rubber motor mounts replaced).
Good luck,
H


Attachments:
V-M 1234 series.jpg
V-M 1234 series.jpg [ 117.64 KiB | Viewed 444 times ]
V-M 1234-2.jpg
V-M 1234-2.jpg [ 201.89 KiB | Viewed 444 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Motorola VM record changer problems
PostPosted: May Fri 24, 2019 10:09 pm 
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Joined: Sep Thu 28, 2006 12:51 pm
Posts: 9349
Location: Sarasota, Florida
Attachment:
phono2.JPG
phono2.JPG [ 23.14 KiB | Viewed 437 times ]


Platter removed again, the mechanism is different from the Sams. I don't see an adjustment screw but I'm sure the motor mounts will help.

It appears two screws and the mechanism comes out, except for the one long-wire that comes from the switch. Once out the mounts should be easy to replace. As it is I can only reach one; I assume there are three.

This all sounds pretty dumb, except for the fact that there is no "bench" in this house and I have nearly nothing in the way of tools. So I'm looking at easy ways to explain how to do all of this.

Also sorry the pictures aren't any better. If this thing were at my house I'd be done by now.

Thanks!

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Gary Tayman, Sarasota, Florida


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 Post subject: Re: Motorola VM record changer problems
PostPosted: May Fri 24, 2019 11:21 pm 
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Joined: Jan Wed 16, 2013 12:04 am
Posts: 1567
Location: 77001
Gary, I blew up the image, and no, this is not what
I thought from your first image.
This one is kind of between the design changes
between the older 1950's V-M's and the newer
early 1960's models. Has characteristics of both.

If I could see underneath, I could tell you more.
But, I'm sure you can visually figure it out.

It is a V-M 1200 type series, which does not have an
idler wheel height adjust, as you mention.
The motor/speed change assembly come out as one
unit. You might have to finagle with the left side speed
control linkage, if it is attached to the assembly.

So, new motor mounts and a new idler should effect
significant improvement in operation.

If you need the 1200 service file, let me know
via PM with an email address.
Yes, it's tough to do work without your own
tools about.

And, here's Ed's very complete restoration of a
V-M 1200 series changer in a Zenith brand :

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=186294&hilit=restoration+zenith


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 Post subject: Re: Motorola VM record changer problems
PostPosted: May Fri 24, 2019 11:32 pm 
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Joined: Sep Thu 28, 2006 12:51 pm
Posts: 9349
Location: Sarasota, Florida
Okay, looks like I've figured out a lot of it.

The biggest problem is the motor mounts. Motor is sitting too low.

There are washers above and below the idler, and around the pivots which support the idler assembly.

Somebody, somewhere, thought that the idler/motor connection would be improved by placing the washers above, instead of below, all of these pivots. As a result, the idler was barely touching the platter at the bottom lip. So I did the opposite -- placed the washers on the bottom, raising the idler a bit. Now it contacts the platter and the turntable works.

As for that flat spot, the flutter is minimal and not noticed. It has apparently been this way.

So the fix is going to be a new idler, and new motor mounts. Since Paul (my son-in-law) worked with me on this, he sees exactly what we were doing, so in short order he's going to replace these things. He/s also going to find some light oil (as the only lube currently is the WD-40).

Now -- something else: While the turntable was out, we noticed this wire:

Attachment:
phono3.JPG
phono3.JPG [ 28.26 KiB | Viewed 430 times ]


There's a hook on the other end, and that black piece has a tiny hole. The temptation is to place the wire through that hole, but the black piece is fixed, and that wire will stop the movement in short order. It definitely does NOT go there. But -- what is it? We simply removed it, and set it in a safe place, and the change mechanism works perfectly. Any ideas?

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Gary Tayman, Sarasota, Florida


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 Post subject: Re: Motorola VM record changer problems
PostPosted: May Fri 24, 2019 11:38 pm 
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Location: Sarasota, Florida
Quote:
If you need the 1200 service file, let me know
via PM with an email address.


radio@ my name dot com.

Thank you, and everyone else, for your help.

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Gary Tayman, Sarasota, Florida


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 Post subject: Re: Motorola VM record changer problems
PostPosted: May Fri 24, 2019 11:47 pm 
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Joined: Jan Wed 16, 2013 12:04 am
Posts: 1567
Location: 77001
Good show on verifying the motor mount "fix"
someone did.

That hooked piece goes into a spring that latches onto
the black bar with a hole in it.

I always wondered how necessary it was, as I would
assume a designer of these mechs would not
usually make up a mechanical function.

V-M file on its way to you.

Photo of what it looks like:


Attachments:
V-M 1232-1.jpg
V-M 1232-1.jpg [ 306.7 KiB | Viewed 429 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Motorola VM record changer problems
PostPosted: May Sat 25, 2019 12:52 am 
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Joined: Sep Thu 28, 2006 12:51 pm
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Location: Sarasota, Florida
Thanks yet again, for both. Your photo shows up a lot better than the photo in the file.

Now, once again, if I was at home I'd pull a spring out of my tray of springs and stick one in there. But -- again, it's working; not sure what that spring actually does.

Something interesting, there's a receipt for motor mounts and an idler from VM, dated last year. Obviously they didn't make it into the player.

Yes, I've tinkered with these before, but it's been a LONG time!

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Gary Tayman, Sarasota, Florida


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 Post subject: Re: Motorola VM record changer problems
PostPosted: May Mon 27, 2019 1:30 pm 
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Location: Sarasota, Florida
It's all working fine now, though it's up to my son-in-law to follow up on the mounts and idler.

But before closing out the thread, I've got one more silly question: there's a pocket in the top left corner for the 45 rpm spindle. If you set the spindle in the pocket, good luck getting it back out again. The only way I see is either to find something really sticky, or pull the turntable out and turn it upside down. We've thought about putting something else in there first, so it sticks up a little, but it doesn't clear a 12" record. What am I missing here?

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Gary Tayman, Sarasota, Florida


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 Post subject: Re: Motorola VM record changer problems
PostPosted: Jun Mon 10, 2019 5:14 am 
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Gary, Lowes or Home Depot should have 3-in-One electric motor oil. It's in a blue and white can. Don't use the red/white household 3-in-One oil.

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Ed


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 Post subject: Re: Motorola VM record changer problems
PostPosted: Jun Mon 10, 2019 5:28 am 
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Joined: Aug Tue 24, 2010 8:56 pm
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Location: Northeast Florida
I love VM changers, they never die....they just need serviced every 20 years or so :wink:

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William


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