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 Post subject: Seeburg M100C Restoration-Oh No, Missing Latch Bar Solenoid
PostPosted: Sep Sat 14, 2019 6:16 pm 
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Joined: Mar Tue 22, 2016 12:51 am
Posts: 365
Location: Creswell, OR.
Hi Folks -

A few weeks ago, I brought home a fairly nice condition 1953 Seeburg M100C Jukebox, with what appeared to be only a few missing cosmetic parts, and a dire need for a complete electrical rework. When my daughter (14y) saw it she nearly jumped on top of it and danced in delight. "Can I put it in my room???! Wow, Cool!, I Love it. Let's plug it in right now!, Can we, can we?!" Etc. etc. etc.

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So... after taming the wild child beast and letting her know I would definitely get it fixed up and playable (but it would take some time,) I started with the electrical rebuild. At this point, I have very dutifully gone through all of the electronics and replaced every capacitor (20+) and numerous resistors, selenium rectifier, rebuilt a damaged relay, and am at the point of being ready to reinstall it all and start in on the mechanical aspects. Thus far I've put about 20 hours work into this project, and was riding high on my prospects for getting this finished by the end of summer, as I promised my daughter.

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Oh the best of plans... Last night I pulled off the front song selector panel, with the letters and numbers to give it a good contact cleaning and lubrication, and I noticed that there were a few detached wires and a spot at one end of the selector assembly that was clearly missing some original part. It turns out this missing part is the latch bar solenoid — a part notorious for cooking themselves to death, I have found after some research on the topic — well mine is not merely cooked or damaged, it is just plain missing. Someone before me must have removed it to be repaired and never got around to it. After a fairly exhaustive search on the internet for this part, the best I could come up with were a few pictures of this apparatus.

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...or as seen when installed with the complete mechanism along with some play counter partner that would have been part of the original works...

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Since the original part(s) have evidently fallen into the category of unobtanium, I am willing to reconstruct this missing latch bar set/reset mechanism using generic or alternative bits and pieces, the central-most piece in this puzzle being the solenoid itself. From what I can tell from the schematics and grainy photos I was able to find, this solenoid is 24 or 26v AC of the sort shown in pictures above.

Of course I would be delighted if I could locate the actual complete assembly itself, or even a burned out solenoid from one, but even that seems pretty unlikely, and so am resigned to reconstructing the latch bar solenoid from non-original parts. So I am here at the doorstep of the ARF, hat in hand, asking for any tips or advice that might help me in my headlong dive into this old Seeburg monstrosity.

My thanks in advance,

- Scott


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 Post subject: Re: Seeburg M100C Restoration-Oh No, Missing Latch Bar Solen
PostPosted: Sep Sat 14, 2019 11:38 pm 
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Joined: Jan Wed 16, 2013 12:04 am
Posts: 1859
Location: 77001
Victory Glass is one possible source for the part.

I have a friend who is very knowledgeable with jukes.
I have scant knowledge, but I will ask if he happens to
have a latch bar solenoid for this model Seeburg.
Hotwax

https://victoryglass.com/used-parts/

A few websites discussing that solenoid.

https://alt.collecting.juke-boxes.narki ... od-smoking

https://peakpinball.com/2013/03/05/seeb ... c-jukebox/


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 Post subject: Re: Seeburg M100C Restoration-Oh No, Missing Latch Bar Solen
PostPosted: Sep Sun 15, 2019 1:36 am 
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Joined: Mar Tue 22, 2016 12:51 am
Posts: 365
Location: Creswell, OR.
Thanks for the various links, Hotwax. Very helpful.

I sent a note to the folks at Victory Glass asking about a replacement for this solenoid, and any creative ideas for working around its absence. On of the other links you sent, it did mention to my great relief, that the song selection mechanism will still work IF you press both the number and letter buttons together simultaneously. I might have to give that a try—I still have a lot of mechanical overhauling/cleaning/lubricating to do before I dare apply any power. I will admit the record selection and playing armature has got me a bit intimidated. So many moving parts and pieces and 10-armed relays, etc. Sheesh. I might do well to order one of the troubleshooting and maintenance books I saw on the Victory Glass site.

It does seem like perhaps Seeburg had a nasty and dangerous design flaw in their 50's jukeboxes surrounding this self-incinerating latch bar solenoid. It's a wonder they didn't get sued out of business, but perhaps none of these little solenoids actually caused any fires or property damage. On the other hand, enough of these parts evidently fried into charcoal along the way that they're pretty difficult to find—Correction: impossible to find. I noticed in my various searches on this topic that there are also a number of clever little add-on, retrofit products available which prevent this part from self destructing by switching them back off if someone should walk away from the jukebox without fully selecting their song requests, which is the scenario that causes them to get power applied until they give up their final cloud of acrid smoke. I imagine that occasion has cleared its share of juke joints...

- Scott


Last edited by flanneltuba on Sep Sun 15, 2019 3:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Seeburg M100C Restoration-Oh No, Missing Latch Bar Solen
PostPosted: Sep Sun 15, 2019 11:20 am 
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Joined: Sep Sat 05, 2009 9:45 pm
Posts: 1168
Location: Sun City, Arizona 85373
I like having my Seeburg machines altered a bit so the Latch Bar Solenoid is unnecessary. The two button push for selection is fine with me. It has been a long time since I've restored a Seeburg so my lousy, old age memory does not help very much. We used to have a work party every year and everyone just got used to doing the two button thing on my Seeburgs. I never missed worrying about that darn latch coil.

I think Seeburg made an assumption that a machine would just never have credit left on it (latch coil energized). Perhaps a bad assumption since it could and did happen.

Jukebox Addicts web site is very helpful. The moderator, Ron Rich, is a Seeburg guy and very well versed in Seeburg anything. I used to buy many parts from Bill Butterfield in Napa, CA. Company is Musical Fun For Everyone. He might have a used latch bar coil. I had not purchased anything from him in a few years until a few weeks ago when I bought a few special fasteners for a couple Seeburgs that did not have the correct, special, screws here and there.

My first Seeburg, I foolishly modified the credit unit so I did not have to keep putting coins in it all the time. I did it by bending a ramp type affair in the credit unit so it always had credit. It never canceled credits once I did that. I did not do the "burn up the latch coil" thing fortunately but I sure could have since it was not designed to be energized for long periods of time. I suppose Seeburg Engineers could have done a better job on that.

Have fun with the jukebox! Take care of the needles and cartridge. They have gotten very expensive through the years. I used to give the old red-head cartridges away after Pickering made a nice replacement. Now the old, original red and blackhead cartridges are even expensive.

The Seeburg C is a beautiful machine when it is all nice and restored. I have not done one in years. My glass tubes in the grill, of one, were in need of re-silvering. There was a company in town that did mirrors so I took them there. They agreed to give it a try. They came out OK but I was warned "don't bring us anymore because we will not do them again.


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 Post subject: Re: Seeburg M100C Restoration-Oh No, Missing Latch Bar Solen
PostPosted: Sep Sun 15, 2019 11:48 am 
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Joined: Dec Sun 23, 2007 4:23 am
Posts: 320
Location: Livonia, MI
Might want to contact some of the supplier sources listed in the Jukebox Addicts forum. You'll often find some of them have parts machines and may have what you need. Good luck - I picked one up in spring and hope to find time to get mine working as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Seeburg M100C Restoration-Oh No, Missing Latch Bar Solen
PostPosted: Sep Sun 15, 2019 4:45 pm 
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Joined: Jun Sun 15, 2014 11:04 pm
Posts: 1307
Location: Coos Bay, Oregon
Fortunately, many of the 50's Seeburg models from the A through R share the same solenoid, or variations on it that can be adapted. Also, a Rockola 1493 one will work. A quick check on the internet showed me that they are available, including one that is new old stock: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/ ... d-nos-a-to


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 Post subject: Re: Seeburg M100C Restoration-Oh No, Missing Latch Bar Solen
PostPosted: Sep Sun 15, 2019 8:11 pm 
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Joined: Mar Tue 22, 2016 12:51 am
Posts: 365
Location: Creswell, OR.
Thanks for the good leads and advice. I'm sure I could adapt just about any 24v solenoid to work by making a custom mount, and return spring mechanism.

Startgroove: The NOS solenoid you link to in Worthpoint looks like just the candidate for a custom retrofit, but I must've put extra stupid in my coffee this morning because I cannot figure out how to actually purchase something from that site without first signing myself up for a fairly pricy monthly subscription for their pricing services, and even then I'm still not certain they offer the means to purchase listed items. It's dawning on me that Worthpoint is not an actual store, just a pricing service for rarities. Where's my coffee?

Anyway, I'm in no special hurry, I suppose, if you discount the fact that my daughter has told me she'll put vinegar in my aftershave if I don't get this old beauty spinning discs soon. In my experience parts like this come around on a great, slow wheel of chance, and patience is the main ingredient. That and persistence in peddling my story to the infinite repositories of accumulated knowledge like ARF. I'll post something up on the Jukebox Addicts forum (thanks TonyJ and Juke47) at some point here too. I'm sure before this beast is finished with me, I'll be doing juke tech puppy rolls there for help.

- Scott


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 Post subject: Re: Seeburg M100C Restoration-Oh No, Missing Latch Bar Solen
PostPosted: Sep Tue 17, 2019 2:03 am 
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am
Posts: 9535
Location: Redlands CA
That solenoid shouldn't be all that hard to find, Victory Glass is one source, but there are others, like eBay.

One problem is that it's part of the keyboard, and it's usually sold with a complete keyboard.

There is a Seeburg Collectors group on Facebook with several good parts suppliers. A guy named Mike Florio seems to have just about anything a person would need for these machines, I can get his contact info if you like.

I spent most of 2018 restoring one of these, lots of work, but also a lot of fun.

A service manual is a must, there's just no way anyone can find their way through the maze of contacts and relays on one of these without one. You can find them free to download with a little looking.

I think the fire hazard is a bit overrated, however they are nearly 70 years old and probably best to play it safe. There are freeplay adapters sold on eBay that prevent the solenoid from being left on for any length of time.


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