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 Post subject: Re: Zenith auto changer issue
PostPosted: Jun Wed 02, 2021 1:54 am 
Member

Joined: Jan Wed 16, 2013 12:04 am
Posts: 2543
Location: 77001
Giving you a big E-effort there.

You might want to entertain ordering a trip-link,
when you order the bearing race.

It's not very expensive, and at least you would have
a pristine item to install and see if the on/off
switch problem is corrected.

I have had the same problem with the
V-M 1297 series changers, and the switch
not being shut off.

As I remember, I did have to tweak the trip link nub
that engages the control lever to move the switch
to Off.
I place the changer on small boxes that give it
enough height, so I can view that action from
underneath. That way it is in operating position.

V-M made some changes after the late 1950's in their designs
which really were not improvements from
my experience of rebuilding them.

I don't have a 1297 sitting around anywhere to
reference in person, as it might make it easier
to assist you.
Hotwax


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 Post subject: Re: Zenith auto changer issue
PostPosted: Jun Fri 04, 2021 4:38 pm 
Member

Joined: Dec Mon 28, 2020 11:52 pm
Posts: 397
Location: Davenport, Iowa
Thanks for all the help. I might go ahead and order a trip link. This one was definitely bent before I even started messing with it, and now it's more out of shape than before.

Can you order just the trip link, or do you need to order the whole slide? There is a non-serviceable rivet holding the trip link to the slide.



After letting this thing sit 2 days, I tried playing a record this morning. Now it will drop the record but the arm will not go over and drop the needle. It just puts the arm back in the home position. But since it doesn't turn off the switch, the turntable still spins, and I can drop the needle by hand. Still, very annoying because this part of the cycle was working 2 days ago. I haven't touched it since then, but evidently something shifted or got stuck.

One thing I noticed is that "button" that sticks up through the chassis that "checks" for a 10" record does not come up high enough to engage with the ramp under the platter (like I think it's designed to do). Why would it not come up high enough? Did I mess something up putting it back together? I don't remember it sticking up very much before I took it apart, either though.

I will take your advice though and make a stand of some kind to sit this on so I can watch it operate and try to see what is/isn't engaging. A friend of mine just gave me an old BSR to try to get running again without any kind of cabinet, so I need of something like that anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Zenith auto changer issue
PostPosted: Jun Fri 04, 2021 6:36 pm 
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Joined: Sep Thu 20, 2007 3:16 am
Posts: 1076
Location: Winter Park, Florida
When you tested and had the record drop but the arm didn't move from the rest area, did you have the record over arm over and down on the record?

When the over arm is all the way to the right (there will be a slight detent) the arm is supposed to drop back down on the rest, this was the sequence for manual play.


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 Post subject: Re: Zenith auto changer issue
PostPosted: Jun Fri 04, 2021 9:15 pm 
Member

Joined: Jan Wed 16, 2013 12:04 am
Posts: 2543
Location: 77001
pioneer07 wrote:
Can you order just the trip link, or do you need to order the whole slide? There is a non-serviceable rivet holding the trip link to the slide.
Can you take a photo of the slide removed from the mechanism?
There should be a c-clip holding the trip-link to the slide.
I'm not sure what the rivet is you refer to.

Yes, the trip link is bought as one part.
Email Gary at the VofM with the changer model #,
and he'll give you the correct trip-link.

Orthophonic posed a good question about whether or not
you are setting a record on the spindle, then placing the
support arm on the record, and then turning on the
auto play of the changer.

Is there a way to make a short video of this activity ?
Including no record on the platter, so we can
observe the 7 inch button motion through cycle ?
Hotwax


Attachments:
V-M 1297 Manual Play.png
V-M 1297 Manual Play.png [ 175.6 KiB | Viewed 883 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Zenith auto changer issue
PostPosted: Jun Fri 04, 2021 10:32 pm 
Member

Joined: Dec Mon 28, 2020 11:52 pm
Posts: 397
Location: Davenport, Iowa
This latest problem where the arm would not move over the record to drop the needle was with a record on the platter.

I think I'm confusing terms here, but this is what my service manual calls them:
- The trip lever is the small one mounted to the gear that drives the changer, and it only moves a tiny bit. I actually had that apart when I did the "basic service" on this one. It should be OK, I think. It moves freely.
- The trip link is the long aluminum one with slots that is mounted to the slide assembly that is supposed to turn off the on/off switch at the end of the cycle. I was wrong and it can be removed from the slide, once you you take the slide off. That is the one that was bent before I started messing with anything. I tried bending it a couple times myself but gave up on that quickly because I didn't want to bend it too much. But in a couple attempts I could not find a "sweet spot" where it would NOT turn the switch off early in the cycle, but still turn it off at the end.

I got a small platform built where I can rest the turntable while it's playing. I'll see if I can get a video later


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 Post subject: Re: Zenith auto changer issue
PostPosted: Jun Fri 04, 2021 11:11 pm 
Member

Joined: Jan Wed 16, 2013 12:04 am
Posts: 2543
Location: 77001
pioneer07 wrote:
This latest problem where the arm would not move over the record to drop the needle was with a record on the platter.

Okay, but are you putting the record on spindle, then record support arm
on the record, then starting auto play, and the record drops to platter ?

The lever you reference not coming up through the hole in the
changer base, is the 7inch indexing lever.

The 7inch index lever's mounting hole in it, must be flush mounted over
the machined part it mounts to on the frame assembly.

The 7inch lever's spring must be positioned/centered correctly in its
retaining well in the frame assembly and on the 7inch lever.

The 7 inch lever mounting screw must be down flush with the frame
assembly hole it goes into.

Hotwax

P.S. Please post a photo of the changer top and bottom,
as the later V-M models had even more hardware
changes. I need to know exactly what you've got there.


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 Post subject: Re: Zenith auto changer issue
PostPosted: Jun Sat 05, 2021 1:19 am 
Member

Joined: Dec Mon 28, 2020 11:52 pm
Posts: 397
Location: Davenport, Iowa
I made several videos. Hopefully they show you what you need. If not, let me know and I can take more pictures or videos. I've taken the receiver and record player out of the cabinet and put them on my work table in my basement in these videos. The record player is on a makeshift platform so I can see under it. When this was in the cabinet earlier today, the arm would not move over and drop the needle on the record. Now it does! This table has a slight incline. So I rotated it 180% on the table, so the incline would be in the opposite direction. The first time I tried it that way, the arm did NOT move over to drop the needle. But every time since then, it's been working regardless of orientation. So there is something that is intermittently sticking or something.

In this video I'm showing that button (which I thought was for the 10" record, but you're saying it's for the 7" record):
https://drive.google.com/file/d/19Apu8J ... sp=sharing

This video is an instance where the trip link hit the on/off switch early in a cycle. This is the only time it actually turned it off early in the cycle. This was surprising because it hasn't done this in a while:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/19kRy3T ... sp=sharing

A instance where it partially hit the on/off switch early in the cycle, but not enough to turn it off. I also show the end of a cycle:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/19EXL_h ... sp=sharing

A view under the chassis during the beginning of a cycle:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1907ehm ... sp=sharing

A view under the chassis during the end of a cycle:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/19-ioUL ... sp=sharing


A picture of the underside of this one that hopefully help identify it. I added the blue tape to the wires to keep them from rubbing that on/off lever that moves:
Attachment:
Zenith changer.JPG
Zenith changer.JPG [ 254.6 KiB | Viewed 866 times ]


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 Post subject: Re: Zenith auto changer issue
PostPosted: Jun Sat 05, 2021 3:35 am 
Member

Joined: Feb Wed 04, 2015 12:26 am
Posts: 1648
Okay.

The 7 inch lever being referenced is actually under the chassis. The button on the turntable is for 10 inch. The order of size detection is 12 inch first, then 10 inch, then 7 inch.


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 Post subject: Re: Zenith auto changer issue
PostPosted: Jun Sat 05, 2021 6:18 am 
Member

Joined: Jan Wed 16, 2013 12:04 am
Posts: 2543
Location: 77001
Thanks for the good videos and photo.
This is a standard 1297, from the mid 60's,
from what I can see of the EIA-VM model/date code
on the paper tag.

1. Re: 7 inch index lever.
Viewing your video, it is not coming up properly.
So, review your installation of it and of the reset lever.

2. The erratic switching off I believe is due to
faults in the trip link alignment (being bent out of form).

Hopefully your new trip-link will cure that.

3. How the 7 inch lever interacts w/record size changing
per the manual.
Hotwax


Attachments:
Record Size Changing.png
Record Size Changing.png [ 217.07 KiB | Viewed 853 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Zenith auto changer issue
PostPosted: Jun Sat 05, 2021 6:58 pm 
Member

Joined: Dec Mon 28, 2020 11:52 pm
Posts: 397
Location: Davenport, Iowa
So there are a couple issues I found, and they could be interacting or related. First, the arm that goes up and down with the record support shaft (#102) is bent, and it's binding against the shut off lever (item #68). Here is a video that shows it better:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AdTxNc ... sp=sharing


Second, item #43 (called the "locator") is also sticking intermittently. But that is disengaged by item #68...so if item #68 is binding then that might explain why it's not disengaging all the time when it should. Here is a second video showing that:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Arlj41 ... sp=sharing


So how do I need to bend that arm at the bottom of the item #102 so that it does not bind any more? Bend it up or down? This may be the source of most of my problems.


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 Post subject: Re: Zenith auto changer issue
PostPosted: Jun Sat 05, 2021 7:36 pm 
Member

Joined: Jan Wed 16, 2013 12:04 am
Posts: 2543
Location: 77001
pioneer07 wrote:
So there are a couple issues I found, and they could be interacting or related.

First, the arm that goes up and down with the record support shaft (#102) is bent, and it's binding against the shut off lever (item #68).
Second, item #43 (called the "locator") is also sticking intermittently. But that is disengaged by item #68...so if item #68 is binding then that might explain why it's not disengaging all the time when it should.

So how do I need to bend that arm at the bottom of the item #102 so that it does not bind any more? Bend it up or down? This may be the source of most of my problems.
I don't think either situation is problematic.
1. The lever attached to #102(record support shaft) appears to be undamaged.
Remember that it will be working in an upright position, gravity will not let it
bind on the shut-off lever.
And the weight of the record support arm/support shaft does not
exert that much force on the lever.

I don't advise you to bend the lever on the record support shaft
at this point. Get that trip-link ordered.

2. The locator is literally linked to the finger & shaft #49,
that the tonearm is connected to. Tonearm position laterally
across the platter arc of changer cycle partially determines if it is locked
to the locator or not.

It is hard to translate the text of the changer manual to
physical operation, but that is what you must do.
Read through the changer cycle section, and try to match
the parts written about to what you see in the changer.

Turning the gear assembly #69 clockwise by hand is
what I do to observe cycle actions.
This is done with everything assembled.

You might want to wear a rubber glove or canvas glove
so your fingers don't get sore, ha ha ! Mine do.

Then, the above items you wrote about will be
more clear.
Hotwax


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 Post subject: Re: Zenith auto changer issue
PostPosted: Jun Sat 05, 2021 8:58 pm 
Member

Joined: Dec Mon 28, 2020 11:52 pm
Posts: 397
Location: Davenport, Iowa
I actually got this thing working. The issue is that the switch itself is loose. In other words, when I hold the switch in place with my hand so that it can't move, it will go through a cycle and then actually shut off like it should. The switch is not broken or anything. It's just pretty loose. How can I get it so that it stays solidly in place? I think that will fix this whole issue. I was able to get it to work correctly 3 times in a row when holding the switch solidly in place with my hand. A short video showing how much play there is in the switch mounting:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Azbsse ... sp=sharing


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 Post subject: Re: Zenith auto changer issue
PostPosted: Jun Sat 05, 2021 9:09 pm 
Member

Joined: Jan Wed 16, 2013 12:04 am
Posts: 2543
Location: 77001
Great that the problem is ID'd.

I forget that a broken housing is usually
the other way these switches break.
Not always internal breakage.

The plastic switch is held in place by three
molded prongs.
Probably one or more of the prongs is busted.

I would order a new switch, because the
old plastic is going to break internally, too,
at some point.
Gary's switches are new, not new old stock.
And he guarantees his parts.

Unwire the old switch and send ALL parts of
it to Gary for exchange.

Hotwax


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 Post subject: Re: Zenith auto changer issue
PostPosted: Jun Sat 05, 2021 9:26 pm 
Member

Joined: Dec Mon 28, 2020 11:52 pm
Posts: 397
Location: Davenport, Iowa
So yeah one of the 3 mounting tabs is broken off the switch. New switch time. I bet that will fix this one though.


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 Post subject: Re: Zenith auto changer issue
PostPosted: Jun Sun 13, 2021 12:09 am 
Member

Joined: Dec Mon 28, 2020 11:52 pm
Posts: 397
Location: Davenport, Iowa
I got the new switch and bearings today. The bearings did reduce the background noise somewhat. It's still a bit higher than my other record player, but honestly I think it's because this amp and needle are a lot more sensitive than those. It's tolerable.

The thing that is killing me though is still the auto changer cycle. The new switch works when I operate it manually but still have the issue where it won't shut off at the end. I've got a new trip link ready but I haven't installed it yet. That will probably be tomorrow.


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 Post subject: Re: Zenith auto changer issue
PostPosted: Jun Mon 14, 2021 5:03 pm 
Member

Joined: Dec Mon 28, 2020 11:52 pm
Posts: 397
Location: Davenport, Iowa
New trip link (item #54) has been installed and lubricated. Put it back together and for now it's working the same as before - it will lift the tone arm, drop the record, play the whole side, put the tone arm back to home...but just not turn the switch off at the end. This is with a new on/off switch is installed too. Before I did anything else (such as try bending this new trip link), I wanted to see what you folks had to say.

I did compare the new trip link to the old one when I had them both out. The old one was bent upward quite a bit more than this new one, at the end that would interact with the on/off switch. And since it was not getting the job done, I'm wondering if something else is off.

I'm also tempted to leave well enough alone since it does everything correctly except that last step. I hate to keep jacking around with this thing because every time I take it out of the cabinet I'm afraid I'll break something else. If there is an easy thing or two I can try, I'll give it a shot but I'm about ready to call this "good".


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 Post subject: Re: Zenith auto changer issue
PostPosted: Jun Mon 14, 2021 6:11 pm 
Member

Joined: Jan Wed 16, 2013 12:04 am
Posts: 2543
Location: 77001
1. If I was going to attempt a fix, I would get the old trip link
back into form using the new one as guide.

Then, I would use 2 pairs of needle-nose pliers to bend that
formed tab on the old trip link.
One pair to firmly stabilize the link, and one to bend the tab.

You have visualized that switch shut-off tab before;
it would need to be bent towards the control lever assembly.

2. If the auto/reject function works, and records drop
properly, then you may settle for manual turning off
of the changer after last record.

Good luck,
Hotwax


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 Post subject: Re: Zenith auto changer issue
PostPosted: Jun Mon 14, 2021 11:17 pm 
Member

Joined: Dec Mon 28, 2020 11:52 pm
Posts: 397
Location: Davenport, Iowa
Hotwax wrote:
1. If I was going to attempt a fix, I would get the old trip link
back into form using the new one as guide.

Then, I would use 2 pairs of needle-nose pliers to bend that
formed tab on the old trip link.
One pair to firmly stabilize the link, and one to bend the tab.

You have visualized that switch shut-off tab before;
it would need to be bent towards the control lever assembly.

2. If the auto/reject function works, and records drop
properly, then you may settle for manual turning off
of the changer after last record.

Good luck,
Hotwax



I'm going to leave it alone, for now. I have the receiver back out of the cabinet trying to figure out a different issue. Once I get this receiver issue resolved, I'll see if I feel like revisiting this record changer.


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 Post subject: Re: Zenith auto changer issue
PostPosted: Jul Fri 16, 2021 10:00 pm 
Member

Joined: Dec Mon 28, 2020 11:52 pm
Posts: 397
Location: Davenport, Iowa
So I did try the suggestion on this one, but I still cannot find a place where the link will hit the off switch at the end of the cycle. I'm going to leave well enough alone on this record changer, and just live with this issue.a

HOWEVER

I have another issue with this console. Someone suggested I post this question here due to the wealth of experience with this series of Zenith.

There is a 60Hz hum on the left channel. It does not vary with the volume knob, and it is present on every function (radio, phono, tape). However, it does go away if I dial the bass knob down to about 35%. The bass is quite aggressive on this unit so even with the bass knob dialed back, it sounds good. If I flip the wires to the speakers, the issue goes to the right side. So it's an issue in the receiver.

I have a ton more info I can share on this unit, too. I will share some of the key stuff.

I have found some noise in the suspect channel with my oscilloscope but I can't find the source.

All of the power circuit voltages are measuring high, especially the top 3. They are supposed to be -41V, -33V and -22V, but they all measure 5 to 6V higher than that. I used a variac to dial in the exact input voltage, but these still measured about 3 to 4V high even with the variac. Maybe that is a clue. The top voltage is measuring -47V, and it has like a 0.7V sawtooth on top of it.

All electrolytic capacitors have been replaced. The unit sounds really good except for this one issue.


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 Post subject: Re: Zenith auto changer issue
PostPosted: Jul Fri 16, 2021 11:23 pm 
Member

Joined: Dec Mon 28, 2020 11:52 pm
Posts: 397
Location: Davenport, Iowa
I will also mention that this is heat related. So after this has been sitting overnight, the hum takes a good 20+ minutes to appear. I thought it was gone. I played the whole side of a record with no issues. It finally came back halfway into the second side. And one time the issue did disappear ntirely for 2 weeks before it came back.


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