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Dutch Rabbit
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Post subject: Repro Decal Coming Off When Varnished-Done Posted: Jul Wed 03, 2019 10:41 pm |
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Joined: May Sun 13, 2012 8:12 pm Posts: 12702 Location: Central PA 16801
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before I begin, this is NOT a complaint.
I am doing one of my last radios and it will need to have a reproduction "airline" decal put back on the cabinet.
the last time I lacquered over or varnished over one of the new reproduction decals with a few brush strokes, the printing on the decal dissolved.
I am thinking about using a Qtip and just quickly blotting some light dabs of lacquer or poly over the decal, letting it dry, and then putting on my final two top coats.
that way, when I put the final coats on the cabinet, the decal has already been "sealed" and I won't have to worry about the print dissolving.
before I go ahead and do this, is there any other way that I can just put the decal on and normally put the top coat of finish over it w/o the decal print dissolving ?
I'm sure I'm not the only person who has had this happen with the new decals that are out there. the decals that I got from AES back in the day never smudged one bit when a top coat was applied.
any suggestions other than what I already plan to do ?
steve
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Last edited by Dutch Rabbit on Jul Sat 20, 2019 3:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Electronic Memory
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Post subject: Re: Repro Decal Coming Off When Varnished Posted: Jul Wed 03, 2019 11:45 pm |
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Joined: Nov Thu 11, 2010 6:03 pm Posts: 963 Location: Pewaukee, WI
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Have you considered putting a coat of spray lacquer over the decal...you avoid mechanically agitating the decal and brush bumps in the lacquer you lay down.
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Dutch Rabbit
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Post subject: Re: Repro Decal Coming Off When Varnished Posted: Jul Thu 04, 2019 12:30 am |
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Joined: May Sun 13, 2012 8:12 pm Posts: 12702 Location: Central PA 16801
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that is an idea.
_________________ You have enemies ? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
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Brett_Buck
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Post subject: Re: Repro Decal Coming Off When Varnished Posted: Jul Thu 04, 2019 12:50 am |
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Joined: Aug Wed 24, 2011 4:35 am Posts: 4594 Location: Sunnyvale CA
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Dutch Rabbit wrote: I am doing one of my last radios and it will need to have a reproduction "airline" decal put back on the cabinet.
the last time I lacquered over or varnished over one of the new reproduction decals with a few brush strokes, the printing on the decal dissolved. The decals are extremely fragile, and particularly with lacquer, you cannot touch them once they have gotten the solvent on them, or they do exactly as you describe. Dust on the lightest of light coats of lacquer with a air brush, spray gun, or can, and don't touch it until it has A LOT of buildup of material over it. Most of them can take a thin "wet" coat but I wouldn't risk it, myself. Brett
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Dutch Rabbit
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Post subject: Re: Repro Decal Coming Off When Varnished Posted: Jul Thu 04, 2019 5:08 am |
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Joined: May Sun 13, 2012 8:12 pm Posts: 12702 Location: Central PA 16801
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ok, great ideas, thanks with all that said about a light spray: what i plan to do is put the first coat of lacquer or poly on the cabinet. then i will apply the decal. to seal the decal before the final coating of topcoat, i will spray over the decal only by masking off the rest of the cabinet. i might do two coats. i have applied decals on bare wood before. most of the time it did not work out well as the "ring" of the decal stood out in the wood after the first coat of lacquer or poly was applied. it looked horrible. anytime i put on a first coat of lacquer or poly, then applied the decal, then the topcoat, the decal looked like it was "in" the finish and not "stuck inside" the wood. this is the radio of interest, not mine. https://www.vintageaudioexchange.com/pr ... d-restoredsteve
_________________ You have enemies ? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
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Kirbyc
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Post subject: Re: Repro Decal Coming Off When Varnished Posted: Jul Thu 04, 2019 6:24 am |
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Joined: Sep Mon 24, 2012 10:14 pm Posts: 1095 Location: Topeka KS
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Ive had pretty good luck so far by first laying a couple of coats of lacquer on the cabinet. Letting it dry for a day or two. Applying the decal. Letting it dry and then lightly dusting a couple of coats of lacquer over the decals. After that I lay down one or two more coats. I don’t think you really want to mask off the rest of the radio. It will leave a ridge where the tape was.
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Alan Voorhees
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Post subject: Re: Repro Decal Coming Off When Varnished Posted: Jul Thu 04, 2019 8:59 am |
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am Posts: 10851 Location: Baguio City, Philippines
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Use a wash coat of shellac or a spritz if shellac from a spray can before the lacquer. Shellac uses alcohol for a solvent, so it will create a protective barrier between the decal and the solvents in the Lacquer.
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Dutch Rabbit
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Post subject: Re: Repro Decal Coming Off When Varnished Posted: Jul Thu 04, 2019 4:26 pm |
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Joined: May Sun 13, 2012 8:12 pm Posts: 12702 Location: Central PA 16801
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thanks guys,
i too was wondering about the masking of the resto of the cabinet causing there to be a ridge.
these suggestions are great.
thanks.
steve
_________________ You have enemies ? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
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chaz
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Post subject: Re: Repro Decal Coming Off When Varnished Posted: Jul Thu 04, 2019 5:44 pm |
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Joined: Nov Mon 05, 2007 11:08 pm Posts: 2897 Location: Calgary Alberta
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What Kirby said is right . If you use masking tape THERE WILL BE RIDGES.
Dan in Calgary
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Dutch Rabbit
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Post subject: Re: Repro Decal Coming Off When Varnished Posted: Jul Fri 05, 2019 4:25 am |
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Joined: May Sun 13, 2012 8:12 pm Posts: 12702 Location: Central PA 16801
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yes, i don't want that.
steve
_________________ You have enemies ? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
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Ralph 100
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Post subject: Re: Repro Decal Coming Off When Varnished Posted: Jul Fri 12, 2019 1:51 am |
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Joined: Jul Sun 13, 2008 4:02 pm Posts: 150 Location: Scranton, PA 18505
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I do what kirbyc suggested. Works everytime.
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Dutch Rabbit
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Post subject: Re: Repro Decal Coming Off When Varnished Posted: Jul Fri 12, 2019 1:59 am |
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Joined: May Sun 13, 2012 8:12 pm Posts: 12702 Location: Central PA 16801
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i plan on doing that this weekend as the decal will arrive fri or sat.
steve
_________________ You have enemies ? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
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Dutch Rabbit
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Post subject: Re: Repro Decal Coming Off When Varnished Posted: Jul Sat 20, 2019 3:51 am |
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Joined: May Sun 13, 2012 8:12 pm Posts: 12702 Location: Central PA 16801
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it turned out quite well. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=362099steve
_________________ You have enemies ? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
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Alan Voorhees
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Post subject: Re: Repro Decal Coming Off When Varnished-Done Posted: Jul Sat 20, 2019 9:58 am |
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am Posts: 10851 Location: Baguio City, Philippines
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Dutch Rabbit
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Post subject: Re: Repro Decal Coming Off When Varnished-Done Posted: Jul Sat 20, 2019 3:37 pm |
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Joined: May Sun 13, 2012 8:12 pm Posts: 12702 Location: Central PA 16801
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kirbyc said: Ive had pretty good luck so far by first laying a couple of coats of lacquer on the cabinet. Letting it dry for a day or two. Applying the decal. Letting it dry and then lightly dusting a couple of coats of lacquer over the decals. After that I lay down one or two more coats. I don’t think you really want to mask off the rest of the radio. It will leave a ridge where the tape was. --- i used two coats of brushed poly on the cabinet and a very light spritz of spray can poly across the bottom length of the knob hole and decal area. i then put a final coat of brushed poly on the cabinet. there is no indication of seeing the "spray" coat. everything evened out and it looks great.  i still can't understand why radiodaze makes such inferior decals that will smudge with any kind of oil based finish ? that is ridiculous and makes absolutely NO sense to me. i wonder how many people found this out the hard way ; who ISN'T going to finish over the decal ??? all i know is that the decals i bought from AES and another radio restoration company (can't think of the name) back in the 80s and 90s sold quality decals that never smudged on bit. they were thick and of much better quality. radiodaze needs to rethink and fix this. steve
_________________ You have enemies ? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
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Art Hoch
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Post subject: Re: Repro Decal Coming Off When Varnished-Done Posted: Aug Mon 12, 2019 8:49 pm |
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Joined: Jan Thu 01, 1970 1:00 am Posts: 3891 Location: Kansas
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I bought decals from Rock Sea Enterprises (in California) years ago that were excellent. Sad to say he went out of business.  Don't know who to recommend now. Have never used Radio Daze stuff.
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Dutch Rabbit
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Post subject: Re: Repro Decal Coming Off When Varnished-Done Posted: Aug Mon 12, 2019 8:53 pm |
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Joined: May Sun 13, 2012 8:12 pm Posts: 12702 Location: Central PA 16801
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i just don't understand making lacquer soluble printed decals.
steve
_________________ You have enemies ? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
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wazz
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Post subject: Re: Repro Decal Coming Off When Varnished-Done Posted: Aug Sun 18, 2019 3:45 pm |
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Joined: Jun Wed 08, 2011 2:33 am Posts: 9514 Location: Ohio 45177
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When I put a new decal on my refinished Music Master horn, I used some stuff called Micro Sol from Microscale Industries on it. It is described as a "setting solution for decals". "Softens decals to conform to irregular surfaces for a painted-on look". Made the decal smooth and conformed to the wood grain in the horn. I got my M-M decals from the ebay seller in South America. Decal was made flawless, to my eye. I have not built any plastic models in decades so I messed up the first decal trying to get it positioned. Lucky there were two.
_________________ Reddy Kilowatt says; You smell smoke? Sorry about that!
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Dutch Rabbit
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Post subject: Re: Repro Decal Coming Off When Varnished-Done Posted: Aug Mon 19, 2019 3:32 am |
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Joined: May Sun 13, 2012 8:12 pm Posts: 12702 Location: Central PA 16801
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i've used solvaset in the past.
i do know for a fact that radiodaze's decals do not like any lacquer or oil based finish and that is up there with some of the stupidest things i've ever heard/witnessed.
steve
_________________ You have enemies ? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life.
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Brett_Buck
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Post subject: Re: Repro Decal Coming Off When Varnished-Done Posted: Aug Mon 19, 2019 7:30 am |
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Joined: Aug Wed 24, 2011 4:35 am Posts: 4594 Location: Sunnyvale CA
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Dutch Rabbit wrote: i've used solvaset in the past.
i do know for a fact that radiodaze's decals do not like any lacquer or oil based finish and that is up there with some of the stupidest things i've ever heard/witnessed. No it isn't, they are made that way *on purpose* to ensure that it will properly blend in, and not look like a plastic sticker with finish on it. This is more-or-less the same as they have been for around 120 years, the originals were the same. Effectively, they are some sort of weakly solvent-resistant film (usually clear nitrocellulose lacquer with very small amounts of plasticizer, painted on a sheet of release paper, the thinner and the least resistant the better, with solvent-based paint to make the colors. Even ink jet home job decals are water-soluble ink with a "sealer" over them, the sealer is nitrocellulose lacquer or something very much like it. They aren't nearly as good as the RadioDaze (or everyone else's) precisely because they are much thicker and much more durable, therefore much harder to blend in. Photo-finish is *just a really big decal*, that's why they come off with lacquer thinner This has been the same issue since decals were invented. The technique to apply them has been more-or-less the same since then. They almost all have this "defect", only fairly recently has it been possible to do otherwise. You didn't know how to apply and use them properly, and wrecked them. That's not a severe failing on your part, you learned how, now they work OK, and you won't repeat your mistake the next time, presumably. Trashing the people who made it or "rending your garments" in anguish over it. doesn't make any sense. Brett
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