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 Post subject: Repro Decal Coming Off When Varnished-Done
PostPosted: Jul Wed 03, 2019 10:41 pm 
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before I begin, this is NOT a complaint.

I am doing one of my last radios and it will need to have a reproduction "airline" decal put back on the cabinet.

the last time I lacquered over or varnished over one of the new reproduction decals with a few brush strokes, the printing on the decal dissolved.

I am thinking about using a Qtip and just quickly blotting some light dabs of lacquer or poly over the decal, letting it dry, and then putting on my final two top coats.

that way, when I put the final coats on the cabinet, the decal has already been "sealed" and I won't have to worry about the print dissolving.

before I go ahead and do this, is there any other way that I can just put the decal on and normally put the top coat of finish over it w/o the decal print dissolving ?

I'm sure I'm not the only person who has had this happen with the new decals that are out there. the decals that I got from AES back in the day never smudged one bit when a top coat was applied.

any suggestions other than what I already plan to do ?

steve

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Last edited by Dutch Rabbit on Jul Sat 20, 2019 3:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Repro Decal Coming Off When Varnished
PostPosted: Jul Wed 03, 2019 11:45 pm 
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Have you considered putting a coat of spray lacquer over the decal...you avoid mechanically agitating the decal and brush bumps in the lacquer you lay down.


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 Post subject: Re: Repro Decal Coming Off When Varnished
PostPosted: Jul Thu 04, 2019 12:30 am 
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that is an idea.

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 Post subject: Re: Repro Decal Coming Off When Varnished
PostPosted: Jul Thu 04, 2019 12:50 am 
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Dutch Rabbit wrote:
I am doing one of my last radios and it will need to have a reproduction "airline" decal put back on the cabinet.

the last time I lacquered over or varnished over one of the new reproduction decals with a few brush strokes, the printing on the decal dissolved.


The decals are extremely fragile, and particularly with lacquer, you cannot touch them once they have gotten the solvent on them, or they do exactly as you describe. Dust on the lightest of light coats of lacquer with a air brush, spray gun, or can, and don't touch it until it has A LOT of buildup of material over it. Most of them can take a thin "wet" coat but I wouldn't risk it, myself.

Brett


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 Post subject: Re: Repro Decal Coming Off When Varnished
PostPosted: Jul Thu 04, 2019 5:08 am 
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ok, great ideas, thanks

with all that said about a light spray:

what i plan to do is put the first coat of lacquer or poly on the cabinet. then i will apply the decal.

to seal the decal before the final coating of topcoat, i will spray over the decal only by masking off the rest of the cabinet. i might do two coats.

i have applied decals on bare wood before. most of the time it did not work out well as the "ring" of the decal stood out in the wood after the first coat of lacquer or poly was applied. it looked horrible.

anytime i put on a first coat of lacquer or poly, then applied the decal, then the topcoat, the decal looked like it was "in" the finish and not "stuck inside" the wood.

this is the radio of interest, not mine.

https://www.vintageaudioexchange.com/pr ... d-restored

steve

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 Post subject: Re: Repro Decal Coming Off When Varnished
PostPosted: Jul Thu 04, 2019 6:24 am 
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Ive had pretty good luck so far by first laying a couple of coats of lacquer on the cabinet. Letting it dry for a day or two. Applying the decal. Letting it dry and then lightly dusting a couple of coats of lacquer over the decals. After that I lay down one or two more coats. I don’t think you really want to mask off the rest of the radio. It will leave a ridge where the tape was.


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 Post subject: Re: Repro Decal Coming Off When Varnished
PostPosted: Jul Thu 04, 2019 8:59 am 
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Use a wash coat of shellac or a spritz if shellac from a spray can before the lacquer. Shellac uses alcohol for a solvent, so it will create a protective barrier between the decal and the solvents in the Lacquer.


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 Post subject: Re: Repro Decal Coming Off When Varnished
PostPosted: Jul Thu 04, 2019 4:26 pm 
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thanks guys,

i too was wondering about the masking of the resto of the cabinet causing there to be a ridge.

these suggestions are great.

thanks.

steve

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 Post subject: Re: Repro Decal Coming Off When Varnished
PostPosted: Jul Thu 04, 2019 5:44 pm 
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What Kirby said is right . If you use masking tape THERE WILL BE RIDGES.

Dan in Calgary


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 Post subject: Re: Repro Decal Coming Off When Varnished
PostPosted: Jul Fri 05, 2019 4:25 am 
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yes, i don't want that.

steve

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 Post subject: Re: Repro Decal Coming Off When Varnished
PostPosted: Jul Fri 12, 2019 1:51 am 
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I do what kirbyc suggested. Works everytime.


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 Post subject: Re: Repro Decal Coming Off When Varnished
PostPosted: Jul Fri 12, 2019 1:59 am 
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i plan on doing that this weekend as the decal will arrive fri or sat.

steve

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 Post subject: Re: Repro Decal Coming Off When Varnished
PostPosted: Jul Sat 20, 2019 3:51 am 
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it turned out quite well.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=362099

steve

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 Post subject: Re: Repro Decal Coming Off When Varnished-Done
PostPosted: Jul Sat 20, 2019 9:58 am 
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What method did you use?


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 Post subject: Re: Repro Decal Coming Off When Varnished-Done
PostPosted: Jul Sat 20, 2019 3:37 pm 
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kirbyc said:

Ive had pretty good luck so far by first laying a couple of coats of lacquer on the cabinet. Letting it dry for a day or two. Applying the decal. Letting it dry and then lightly dusting a couple of coats of lacquer over the decals. After that I lay down one or two more coats. I don’t think you really want to mask off the rest of the radio. It will leave a ridge where the tape was.

---

i used two coats of brushed poly on the cabinet and a very light spritz of spray can poly across the bottom length of the knob hole and decal area.

i then put a final coat of brushed poly on the cabinet.

there is no indication of seeing the "spray" coat. everything evened out and it looks great.

:arrow: i still can't understand why radiodaze makes such inferior decals that will smudge with any kind of oil based finish ? that is ridiculous and makes absolutely NO sense to me.

i wonder how many people found this out the hard way ; who ISN'T going to finish over the decal ???

all i know is that the decals i bought from AES and another radio restoration company (can't think of the name) back in the 80s and 90s sold quality decals that never smudged on bit. they were thick and of much better quality.

radiodaze needs to rethink and fix this.

steve

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 Post subject: Re: Repro Decal Coming Off When Varnished-Done
PostPosted: Aug Mon 12, 2019 8:49 pm 
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I bought decals from Rock Sea Enterprises (in California) years ago that were excellent. Sad to say he went out of business. :( Don't know who to recommend now.

Have never used Radio Daze stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: Repro Decal Coming Off When Varnished-Done
PostPosted: Aug Mon 12, 2019 8:53 pm 
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i just don't understand making lacquer soluble printed decals.

steve

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 Post subject: Re: Repro Decal Coming Off When Varnished-Done
PostPosted: Aug Sun 18, 2019 3:45 pm 
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When I put a new decal on my refinished Music Master horn, I used some stuff called Micro Sol from Microscale Industries on it. It is described as a "setting solution for decals". "Softens decals to conform to irregular surfaces for a painted-on look". Made the decal smooth and conformed to the wood grain in the horn. I got my M-M decals from the ebay seller in South America. Decal was made flawless, to my eye. I have not built any plastic models in decades so I messed up the first decal trying to get it positioned. Lucky there were two.

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 Post subject: Re: Repro Decal Coming Off When Varnished-Done
PostPosted: Aug Mon 19, 2019 3:32 am 
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i've used solvaset in the past.

i do know for a fact that radiodaze's decals do not like any lacquer or oil based finish and that is up there with some of the stupidest things i've ever heard/witnessed.

steve

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 Post subject: Re: Repro Decal Coming Off When Varnished-Done
PostPosted: Aug Mon 19, 2019 7:30 am 
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Dutch Rabbit wrote:
i've used solvaset in the past.

i do know for a fact that radiodaze's decals do not like any lacquer or oil based finish and that is up there with some of the stupidest things i've ever heard/witnessed.


No it isn't, they are made that way *on purpose* to ensure that it will properly blend in, and not look like a plastic sticker with finish on it. This is more-or-less the same as they have been for around 120 years, the originals were the same. Effectively, they are some sort of weakly solvent-resistant film (usually clear nitrocellulose lacquer with very small amounts of plasticizer, painted on a sheet of release paper, the thinner and the least resistant the better, with solvent-based paint to make the colors.

Even ink jet home job decals are water-soluble ink with a "sealer" over them, the sealer is nitrocellulose lacquer or something very much like it. They aren't nearly as good as the RadioDaze (or everyone else's) precisely because they are much thicker and much more durable, therefore much harder to blend in. Photo-finish is *just a really big decal*, that's why they come off with lacquer thinner

This has been the same issue since decals were invented. The technique to apply them has been more-or-less the same since then. They almost all have this "defect", only fairly recently has it been possible to do otherwise.

You didn't know how to apply and use them properly, and wrecked them. That's not a severe failing on your part, you learned how, now they work OK, and you won't repeat your mistake the next time, presumably. Trashing the people who made it or "rending your garments" in anguish over it. doesn't make any sense.

Brett


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