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 Post subject: Horizontal Yoke Series Capacitor
PostPosted: Jul Mon 26, 2021 3:52 pm 
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I'm working on a 19" B&W Heathkit, circa 1974, model GR-1900, in case anyone cares. This was built back then by a former neighbor who passed it on to me when they moved to a retirement home. I fixed some minor assembly problems and it's been working okay (?) for a few decades, but now I'm determined to fix its last remaining problem. I have the original manual with schematics, etc.

The last remaining problem is in the horizontal section, which I've been working to wrap my head around. The picture is good except that it's offset to the left and runs off the left side of the screen. I haven't opened the set recently, but I think I remember working with the centering magnets, but still unable to bring the raster back to center. Vertical centering is fine and I can fill the screen (or not) vertically with the HEIGHT control.

In looking at the manual I see that there is a capacitor in series with the ground end of the horizontal yoke. The manual photos show a Black Beauty there, but I won't know for sure until I get in there. I've dealt with those elsewhere and I know they tend to go leaky. Since one of the functions of that capacitor is to block DC current thru the yoke, would that explain the raster offset to the left?

If not, where else should I look?

I'll replace that cap regardless. It's a 0.5 uF cap; the manual doesn't give the voltage rating. What would be a good replacement for it? Is Mylar okay? What voltage rating? I'm guessing that in normal operation it sees about 50 DCV across it, plus a bit of AC, but I'm guessing that a bit of overrating is in order since this horizontal path must get worked pretty hard. And low ESR/DF is probably important, too.

I'd like to make sure I have any parts that I might need, before I dive into this.

Thanks for any advice you'd care to offer.


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 Post subject: Re: Horizontal Yoke Series Capacitor
PostPosted: Jul Mon 26, 2021 6:10 pm 
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Yes it is possible that DC current through the yoke could cause this.
The yoke might be angled on the CRT neck.
The blocking cap might need a much higher voltage rating than you think. The yoke current changes rapidly during the horizontal retrace and a very high voltage spike is generated. I wouldn't be surprised if it should be 600V or even 1000V. Mylar construction would be OK, but polypropylene would be better here I think.

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 Post subject: Re: Horizontal Yoke Series Capacitor
PostPosted: Jul Mon 26, 2021 6:20 pm 
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Agree that I wouldn't use anything less than 600 to 1000 volt rating for that cap, but some brands/models had them as low as 200 volts and they seemed to work.

If that original yoke cap gets too leaky, it can explode from internal heating and spread it's contents all over the place.

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 Post subject: Re: Horizontal Yoke Series Capacitor
PostPosted: Jul Mon 26, 2021 6:21 pm 
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It'd help us help you if you posted a pic of the horizontal section of the schematic. Sam's didn't cover Heathkit AFAIK and heath guards their manuals and charges a lot for them so not too many of us here will have our own copy of the schematic to analyze unless you let us peek at yours.


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 Post subject: Re: Horizontal Yoke Series Capacitor
PostPosted: Jul Mon 26, 2021 8:07 pm 
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Electronic Memory wrote:
It'd help us help you if you posted a pic of the horizontal section of the schematic.


Okay, that makes sense. I don't have a good way to do this, but here's a photo that came out better than I expected.
Attachment:
File comment: Heath GR-1900 Horizontal Output Circuit
P7260011.JPG
P7260011.JPG [ 572.25 KiB | Viewed 1712 times ]


The yoke and 4-pin yoke connector are at the top of the photo. The horizontal yoke connects to pins 2 & 3. The collector of the horizontal output transistor connects to the 2nd pin down, while the "grounded" side goes to the 3rd pin down. The pencil is pointing to C408, which is the Black Beauty series capacitor I'm asking about. (The other line leading off that 3rd pin goes thru a 39 k resistor, which I figure is too high an impedance to worry about.)

The horizontal output transistor should pull pin 2 down close to ground most of the time, with +400 V pulses during retrace. My expectation is that C408 should sit with about +60 DCV across it, plus some ripple from the retrace current thru it. I get the impression, however, that there's some resonance between C408 and the yoke inductance, and I don't know what that will contribute to the AC across C408.

My concern here is that I will replace that Black Beauty, which is clearly called for, but that it won't fix the offset raster problem. Half the time I try to visualize which way leakage might push the raster, I seem to come up with this causing an offset to the RIGHT. I'm hoping someone can confirm that leakage here would push the raster to the LEFT, as observed.

If I should look elsewhere for the cause of the offset raster, please let me know.

I totally understand how a 200 V cap might work here, but that a much higher voltage rating might better survive fault conditions or the high AC yoke current.

And I'll look for polypropylene, probably 0.5 uF (or 0.47) at 630 V.

thanks,


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 Post subject: Re: Horizontal Yoke Series Capacitor
PostPosted: Jul Mon 26, 2021 9:25 pm 
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DC on the yoke will shift the raster. Be sure you are not being fooled by a horz AFC problem.
If a yoke problem the empty part will be TOTALY black.
If AFC or osc you usually get dark grey. With an aged CRT it may seem black.

73 Zeno 8)
LFOD !


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 Post subject: Re: Horizontal Yoke Series Capacitor
PostPosted: Jul Mon 26, 2021 10:03 pm 
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That 39K does make me wonder about it, but the current would be small unless the other end is at a high enough voltage. I suppose it has something to do with feedback or horizontal lock.
You can't always be certain about things, sometimes you just have to go with the most likely thing first.
The cap should be replaced anyway. You may find when you open it up that a magnet has slipped or something.
Even doctors sometimes have to open up a patient to find the real cause of a problem.
The suggestion about the AFC might be involved also.

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 Post subject: Re: Horizontal Yoke Series Capacitor
PostPosted: Jul Tue 27, 2021 9:23 am 
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If you looked with a scope at the collector voltage waveform (that is fed to the the yoke) you would find during scan time the voltage will be very close to ground (zero volts) and peak up on the collector to a few hundred volts (the exact peak collector voltage depends on the particular set). This wavform has an average voltage of the B+ supply voltage feeding the opposite side of the transformer primary to where the collector is connected. The reason this is the case is that there is no net DC voltage across the transformer's primary, it is AC and the average value is zero.

So in this circuit, if a yoke coupling capacitor is not used, the yoke would have to be connected across the primary winding on the transformer. But, mostly a series coupling capacitor is required, not so much to block DC, but for the S correction, to correct for the increased sensitivity of the yoke, with increasing deflection angles. However, because the capacitor blocks DC too, it gives the designer the opportunity to return the capacitor (rather than to B+) to ground. From the alternating current perspective, B+ and ground have a very low impedance between them (assuming the power supply filter caps are ok)

So in this circuit, if there was any leakage in the yoke coupling capacitor, due to the average B+ value of the collector waveform, it would tend to shift the raster left.

Normally this is a low ESR type, oil filled cap or a film cap with the lead wires welded to the plates inside.

However, while not impossible, this cap leaking, it is not a likely mechanism for the left shifted picture, because the current would also flow during flyback, damping that and reducing the HT, but it could be just enough to shift the image, but not enough to damp the flyback too much.

So as suggested, check if it is the raster that is shifted left and not the picture in the raster (due to horizontal phasing).Or other issues with CRT beam centering.

The capacitor's voltage at a minimum has to be high enough to support the average B+ with a margin. The voltage rating it requires is not related to the peak collector flyback voltage or the rate of change of inductor or yoke current with time being high during the flyback time. The impedance of the capacitor is inversely proportional to the frequency, so in a coupling circuit the voltage across the capacitor's terminals drops as the frequency, or rates of change increase.

If you put the scope across the capacitor, you would observe a relative low AC voltage superimposed on the B+ average level, that will look like a parabolic looking wave, this is the tuning (resonance with the yoke) which provides the S correction function. A capacitor rated to twice or 3 times the B+ voltage is fine, it does not have to be 500 or 1000V rated. It will be interesting to see what the markings show on the original cap.


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 Post subject: Re: Horizontal Yoke Series Capacitor
PostPosted: Jul Tue 27, 2021 9:39 am 
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Yes that cap needs to be physically large to handle the current. A wound foil polyprop cap rated at 630v or better still 1kV should do it. Higher voltage will probably be needed to get the current rating. The correct cap for this these days is one designed for service in power converters.

Back in the late 60's that cap (in Oz transistor sets) would often have a large hole punched in its side when it failed. Those light green Shizuki metalised foil caps are memorable.

C413 also works hard and is also known to fail with some drama.

Hugo is right about the horizontal phasing but I think a shorted cap is more likely.

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 Post subject: Re: Horizontal Yoke Series Capacitor
PostPosted: Jul Tue 27, 2021 2:39 pm 
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zeno wrote:
DC on the yoke will shift the raster. Be sure you are not being fooled by a horz AFC problem.
If a yoke problem the empty part will be TOTALY black.
If AFC or osc you usually get dark grey. With an aged CRT it may seem black.

73 Zeno 8)
LFOD !

I've managed to convince myself that a leaky Black Beauty here would shift the raster to the LEFT, so that's a relief.

That 39k resistor leads back to the bases of 2 transistors, both at ~0.5 V, so they're not a problem. Yes, this is some kind of feedback/lock signal to the Vertical Oscillator board and Vertical Hold control. I don't know why there would be feedback from the horizontal pulses to the Vertical Hold, so now I'm wondering if that's a mistake in the Heath schematic. It wouldn't be the first: Note the lack of a complete filament circuit for the HV rectifier.

Taking a closer look at the screen while the TV is running, I see that I have mischaracterized the problem. The raster actually covers the entire screen, but the PICTURE is shifted to the left. There is no part of the screen that is black; it's all either image or grey raster lines.

That makes me think that this is a completely different problem: Somehow, the video image is out of sync with the horizontal sync pulse. The problem is consistent from top to bottom of the image. No sign of hum interference or wavy edges.

What I'm watching is an NTSC signal from a digital to analog converter, so I suppose the problem could be in the converter. I have another converter that I will try, as well as a different analog TV. I'll try different combinations to make sure the problem is actually in the TV.

If this problem is in this TV, then I think I will need to start thinking about how the sync circuits pull the sync signals out of the NTSC video. If that's the case, you'll be wanting more schematic photos.

All suggestions gratefully accepted,


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 Post subject: Re: Horizontal Yoke Series Capacitor
PostPosted: Jul Tue 27, 2021 4:32 pm 
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Location: New Hampshire
The hoz AFC is usually a pair of diodes, sometimes in one package. An AFC problem is
as you describe but usually you get a floating pix like the opposite of Vert roll.You
can stop it with the hoz hold but it will float.
A purely sync problem will have both hoz & vert roll.
Post the schematic for the hoz AFC, hoz osc & hoz drive. It should be to the left of the prev.

73 Zeno 8)
LFOD !


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 Post subject: Re: Horizontal Yoke Series Capacitor
PostPosted: Jul Tue 27, 2021 7:57 pm 
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Okay, some more schematic photos, but first, I'm starting to doubt my sanity.... To add to the schematic photos, I decided to add a couple photos of the actual image on the TV screen. Problem is, this time it's not what I thought it was. Now I've got picture all the way to the right. There's still lost image on the left, but it looks like the video stops right as retrace begins. Did I make the previous observation up? I don't think so, but I can't PROVE it.

I think something changed, and to the better.

Okay, here's the horizontal and vertical circuits.
Attachment:
File comment: Horizontal and Vertical modules
P7270012.JPG
P7270012.JPG [ 851.88 KiB | Viewed 1613 times ]


And here's the IF/Video/AGC module
Attachment:
File comment: IF/Video/AGC module
P7270014.JPG
P7270014.JPG [ 783.12 KiB | Viewed 1613 times ]


Here's a photo of the TV screen showing the converter setup menu, which I assume should pretty much fill the screen.
Attachment:
File comment: Photo showing converter setup menu
P7270015.JPG
P7270015.JPG [ 721.99 KiB | Viewed 1613 times ]


And here's a photo of a broadcast ATSC signal converted to NTSC.
Attachment:
File comment: Photo of broadcast video
P7270016.JPG
P7270016.JPG [ 741.51 KiB | Viewed 1613 times ]

It appears that there's horizontal overscan, but note that the Olympic rings are slightly farther off to the left.

I've been wondering what controls the horizontal width. There's no regulation anywhere in the PS, so my guess is that the width is controlled by the voltage supplied to the Horizontal Output Transistor. This comes from an 80 V line, dropped by a 25 Ohm resistor. If the line voltage is higher today than it was 47 years ago, wouldn't that make the scan longer? My line voltage monitor says 125 V right now; I'm pretty sure it was closer to 117 when this set was designed.

I just checked the specs in the manual, and they say 110-130 VRMS, so I'm close to the top of that range.

Okay, things to check: Replace the Black Beauty, check the 80 V rail, check solder connections on the circuit boards, and elsewhere.

Any other suggestions?

None of this will happen until I can get access to our dining room table. My wife is currently recovering from a knee replacement and that's got the table covered with things that had to move during her recovery. I should be able to get back to this TV by the weekend, but once I get on that table, this needs to be quick.


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 Post subject: Re: Horizontal Yoke Series Capacitor
PostPosted: Jul Tue 27, 2021 10:18 pm 
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jadney wrote:

Taking a closer look at the screen while the TV is running, I see that I have mischaracterized the problem. The raster actually covers the entire screen, but the PICTURE is shifted to the left. There is no part of the screen that is black; it's all either image or grey raster lines.



There are two basic ways the the picture phase can be off. The H lock circuit is an AFC, this is simply a Phased Locked Loop. When the H oscillator is locked to the incoming video H sync rate, it has a remain in lock range once locked. So if you rotate the H hold control back and forth, the picture will stay in lock over a range of control movement. The H hold control alters the free running frequency of the H osc. So if the H hold control is used to position the picture horizontally, where the result ends up that what would be the free running frequency of the H osc is too far from the H video sync, then when the set is turned off or on, or the set is cold, the H hold might not come back into lock.

Generally the ideal result occurs (assuming the system is not corrupted by leaky caps or out of spec resistors) when:


1) The scanning raster is correctly centered by the yoke alignment magnets to just equally overlap the scree size evenly everywhere first.

2) The H Hold control is mechanically set in the center of its in lock in range. One trick rather than guess this from the H hold control's mechanical position, is to disable the sync separator, or H sync feed so that the raster is floating by, and adjust the H Hold control for minimal picture creep, then you know the H osc free running frequency is correct. In your circuit, for example, you could short out the base-emitter of Q551, which would kill the H sync, and then set the H osc free running frequency to the correct value for min H picture drift.

3) then check the picture phasing (H position of the picture) inside the raster.

Generally, the diodes which comprise the AFC circuit, effectively create a type of sample hold. A signal is fed back from the H output stage via a series R-C coupling to the AFC diodes, often from the horizontal output transistor's (HOT's)collector. The values of these two parts affect the picture phase. And the diodes are also fed with the H sync pulses, in this case from Q551. A varying DC level is created to control the frequency of the H osc, that ultimately drives the HOT. This is how the AFC's feedback loop is created.The Varying DC control level is filtered with a capacitor, and often a series R-C (anti-hunt network) to control the oscillator, frequency which in your case is Q552's base current.

(Of interest, the idea of the AFC was to make the H Hold system noise immune. In very early Tube TV sets, the H sync pulses were directly injected into the H osc, so the sync was on a line by line basis, but not very noise immune. Later, if the AFC filter time constants were too long, the TV or monitor H osc could not respond fast enough to track the H sync phase errors at the start of a field, in video signals from video tape machines, so there was a tearing at the top of the picture called flag-waiving)


In terms of faults affecting the picture phase, obviously it is worth checking the capacitors, resistors & diodes around the AFC, to see if they are in spec. There can be cases where they are, but the picture phase is not ideal. If that is the case, either the series resistor or capacitor, that brings the feedback signal from the HOT's collector (or H output stage) to the diode AFC circuit can be adjusted in value to correct the phase.


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 Post subject: Re: Horizontal Yoke Series Capacitor
PostPosted: Jul Tue 27, 2021 11:52 pm 
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Some Zenith B/W sets at one time used a sheet of thin brass around the CRT neck where the yoke is. The width was adjusted by sliding the sheet in and out of the yoke. It effected the magnetic field there.
It was also common for manufacturers to purposely set up the TV to over scan the picture so that no black space would appear on the edges despite poor circuit regulation of the picture size.
I don't think Heathkit would have gone that route however because the builder would have some technical knowledge, at least after assembling the TV, and would notice the shortcoming.

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 Post subject: Re: Horizontal Yoke Series Capacitor
PostPosted: Jul Wed 28, 2021 6:10 am 
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It is more common for transistor TVs to have a regulated power supply than not, at least it was in my part of the world. A regulator also filters out mains ripple and saves on electros, which can then be smaller. This matters more when the mains is 50Hz, as it is in Oz.
If there is no regulation the picture will shrink as the voltage drops, but not as much as you might imagine because the HV also falls and makes the tube easier to scan. Overscan was the accepted method for dealing with this when there is no regulation.
C413 will affect the width. Reduce its value by a few percent and the HV will increase, resulting in a smaller but brighter and sharper picture. Many TVs have several caps in parallel in this position so it can be adjusted. Be warned, go too far or leave the cap out and the horizontal OP transistor will be instantly destroyed.
Normally, though, width is correct when the regulated B+ is adjusted to the factory recommended voltage (when you have a regulator!).

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 Post subject: Re: Horizontal Yoke Series Capacitor
PostPosted: Jul Wed 28, 2021 12:33 pm 
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Yes, very important to check the regulated supply voltages, if these are off, it would cause an offset that would also influence the H osc frequency & the picture phase.


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 Post subject: Re: Horizontal Yoke Series Capacitor
PostPosted: Oct Fri 08, 2021 4:35 am 
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I hope you'll forgive me for letting this slide for so long. I'm afraid other things just had priority.

I got back to this a couple weeks ago, opened it up, and checked the voltage supply for the HOT. It was running at about 86 V, which was reasonable, considering how much our line voltage has come up since this set was assembled, nearly 50 years ago. None of the supply voltages in this set are regulated.

[Refer to the schematic in a previous post for C416 and the horizontal circuit.]

I tried increasing the 25 Ohm dropping resistor leading to C416, which supplies the HOT. Even doubling that resistor dropped the voltage on C416 by only ~3 V, so there's not much current going there. The result of that voltage drop on the raster width was insignificant. Someone above pointed out how changing that voltage would not only change H yoke current but also the CRT 2nd anode HV. Those two effects cancel out each other, so this approach is not going to work.

Once I realized that this wasn't going to work the way I expected, I stopped. I did not replace the 0.5 uF yoke series cap, C408, simply because I didn't want to start changing things until I really understood what was going on.

I've been trying to understand what's going on here, and I think I've succeeded. I appreciate the comments and suggestions several of you have made.

My first thought was that I could add some resistance to the yoke, just to reduce the yoke current, but I discarded that idea since it seemed that this would likely result in a non-linear H scan. My next idea was to add a series inductor, which I could wind to get just the right inductance. A variable inductor seemed like it might be perfect, but then I realized that it would have to be shielded or it's field would affect the raster, likely in annoying ways.

That led me to consider winding turns on a ferrite torroid. That should work, but who knows how many iterations it would take for me to find the "right" number of turns.

Finally, I looked at some of my old Sam's instructions for early B&W Zenith sets. There they mention moving a width sleeve to adjust the width. Okay, I think I remember seeing these, and I also remember one of you bringing that up (but I'm afraid I didn't understand/recognize it at the time.) That sounds perfect. It sounds like a very simple passive way to get adjustable control of the width.

There's possibly one of those sleeves buried around here somewhere, but IIRC, it's just a wrap of brass shim stock. I have some brass shim stock here, but I need some details. I have 0.003" and 0.006", would either of these do? Should it have a gap in it, or an overlap (shorted turn?) About how long should it be? I'm thinking I should start with the 0.003" shim stock, about 2" long, but I can't decide about leaving a gap or not. A shorted turn sounds like a bad thing, but a non-shorted sleeve seems like it would make a poor magnetic shield.

Anyone remember what Zenith used to do?

thanks,


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 Post subject: Re: Horizontal Yoke Series Capacitor
PostPosted: Oct Fri 08, 2021 4:18 pm 
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Of course it would be best to find the true problem, but the brass sheet might be a good work around.
If there was supposed to be a brass sheet it should be mentioned in the manual.

The brass sheet isn't a magnetic shield in the traditional sense of a iron magnetic shield. Iron is ferromagnetic, a magnetic field prefers to pass through it more than air, so the field follows the shield around objects. Copper and brass (60-70% copper) is diamagnetic, a magnetic field avoids passing through it.
However the brass sheet is too thin for it to work that way in the yoke.
The magnetic field in the yoke passes ACROSS the CRT neck, not along the neck, so whether the ends of the sheet contact each other does not matter. There shouldn't be any current induced AROUND the neck to short out. However since the magnetic field will pass through the sheet (twice in fact) it will try to induce a current that will be shorted out, this produces a counter field that will partially neutralize the yoke field.
You will just have to try a sheet thickness and see if it is sufficient. I would make the cylinder at least long enough to go completely through the yoke. The induced current is higher with higher frequency, so the 60Hz vertical field is not effected as much. The further the brass sheet is placed into the yoke the bigger the effect will be, so you will need to slide the sheet cylinder in and out of the yoke to adjust.

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 Post subject: Re: Horizontal Yoke Series Capacitor
PostPosted: Oct Sat 09, 2021 6:04 am 
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I recall the sleeves that some (cheap and nasty) UK designs used. They were copper foil laminated in plastic, like a flexible PCB. They had four square shorted loops that met up in the circumference of the neck, attached to a plastic "handle" that allowed you to slide it in and out of the yoke.

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